#456 – Volodymyr Zelenskyy: Ukraine, War, Peace, Putin, Trump, NATO, and Freedom

发布时间 2025-01-06 00:12:14 来源

The following is a conversation with the Vladimir Zelensky, the president of Ukraine. It was an intense, raw, and heartfelt conversation, my goal for which was to understand and to do all I can to push for peace. Please allow me to say a few words, first about language, then about the president, and finally about history. Please skip ahead straight to our conversation, if you like.

以下是与乌克兰总统弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基的对话。这是一场激烈而真诚的交流，我的目标是通过这次对话了解更多，并尽力推动和平。首先，请允许我说几句话，先是关于语言，然后是关于总统，最后是关于历史。当然，如果你愿意，也可以直接跳到我们的对话部分。

We spoke in a mix of languages, continuously switching from Ukrainian to Russian to English. So the interpreter was barely hanging on. It was indeed, in many ways, a wild ride of a conversation. As the president said, the first of many. Language, like many other things in a time of war, is a big deal.

我们用多种语言交谈，不断在乌克兰语、俄语和英语之间切换。所以翻译几乎跟不上。这确实在很多方面是一场狂野的对话。正如总统所说，这是众多对话中的第一次。和许多战时的重要事物一样，语言也是个大问题。

We had a choice, speaking Russian, Ukrainian, or English. The president does speak some English, but he's far from fluent in it, and I sadly don't speak Ukrainian yet. So Russian is the only common language we're both fluent in. In case you don't know, the Russian language is one that the president speaks fluently and was his primary language for most of his life. It's the language I also speak fluently to the degree I speak any language fluently, as does a large fraction of the Ukrainian population.

我们有选择，可以说俄语、乌克兰语或英语。总统会说一些英语，但他的英语还不够流利，而我遗憾地还不会说乌克兰语。所以俄语是我们都能流利交流的唯一语言。可能你不知道，总统讲俄语非常流利，它曾是他大部分人生中的主要语言。我也非常流利地讲俄语，这也是很大一部分乌克兰人都能流利使用的语言。

So the most dynamic and powerful conversation between us would be in Russian, without an interpreter, who in this case added about two to three second delay, and frankly, translated partially and poorly, for me at least, taking away my ability to feel the humor, the wit, the brilliance, the pain, the anger, the humanity of the person sitting before me, that I could clearly feel when he was speaking fluently in the language I understand. Russian. But all that said, war changes everything.

因此，如果我们用俄语进行交流，而无需翻译的话，我们之间的对话会更加生动有力。在这个情况下，翻译通常会造成两到三秒的延迟，而且坦白说，至少对我而言，他翻译得不完整也不准确，这剥夺了我感受对方面对面时的幽默、智慧、才华、痛苦、愤怒和人性光辉的能力，而这些都是在他用我理解的语言流利表达时，我能够清晰感受到的。然而，话虽如此，战争改变一切。

The Ukrainian language has become a symbol of the Ukrainian people's fight for freedom and independence. So we had a difficult choice of three languages and faced with that choice, we said yes, to all three, to the consternation and dismay of the translators. We make captions and voice over audio tracks available in English, Ukrainian, and Russian. So you can listen either to a version that is all one language or to the original mixed language version with subtitles in your preferred language. The default is English overdub. On YouTube, you can switch between language audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon, then clicking audio track, and then selecting the language you prefer, English, Ukrainian, Russian.

乌克兰语已成为乌克兰人民争取自由和独立的象征。因此，我们面临了一个关于使用哪三种语言的艰难选择，在这样的情况下，我们选择了三种语言，这让翻译人员感到不安和沮丧。我们为视频提供英语、乌克兰语和俄语的字幕和配音音轨。您可以选择听完全用一种语言的版本，或者观看带有您偏好语言字幕的原始混合语言版本。默认语言为英语配音。在YouTube上，您可以通过点击设置齿轮图标，然后点击音轨，选择您喜欢的语言：英语、乌克兰语或俄语，以切换语言音轨。

To listen to the original mixed language version, please select the English UK audio track. Big thank you to 11 labs for their help with overdubbing using a mix of AI and humans. We will continue to explore how to break down the barriers that language creates with AI and otherwise. This is a difficult but important endeavor. Language, after all, is much more than a cold sequence of facts and logic statements. There are words when spoken in the right sequence and at the right time, they can shake the world and turn the ties of history that can start and end wars. Great leaders can find those words and great translators can help these words reverberate to the outskirts of a divided civilization.

要收听原始的多语言版本，请选择英语（英国）音轨。非常感谢11 Labs使用人工智能和人工配音的大力协助。我们将继续探索如何利用人工智能及其他方式打破语言造成的障碍。这是一项艰难但重要的任务。语言不仅仅是冷冰冰的事实和逻辑陈述。当某些词汇以正确的顺序和时机被说出时，它们可以震撼世界、改变历史进程，甚至可以引发和结束战争。伟大的领导者能够找到这样的话语，而优秀的翻译者则能让这些话语在分裂的文明中广泛传播。

On another note, let me say that President Zalinski is a truly remarkable person and a historic figure. I say this as somebody who deeply understands the geopolitical complexity and history of the region. I am from this region. My parents were both born in Ukraine, Kiev and Harkiv, both my grandfathers too. I was born in Tajikistan and lived for time there, then in Kiev, then Moscow, then United States. And while I am now for almost 30 years and to the day I die, I am a proud American. My family roots grow deep in the soil of nations that comprised the Soviet Union, including Ukraine, Russia, Belarus and Tajikistan.

换个话题，我想说，总统扎连斯基是一位真正了不起的人物，也是一位历史性人物。我这么说是因为我对这个地区的地缘政治复杂性和历史有着深刻的理解。我来自这个地区。我的父母都是在乌克兰出生的，一个在基辅，一个在哈尔科夫，我的两个祖父也是如此。我出生在塔吉克斯坦，并在那里生活过一段时间，之后在基辅、莫斯科居住过，最后移居美国。如今，我已经在美国生活了将近30年，并将在这里度过余生，我为自己是一名美国人而感到自豪。然而，我的家族根源深植于曾经构成苏联的国家的土地，包括乌克兰、俄罗斯、白俄罗斯和塔吉克斯坦。

I've gotten to know when I've spoken for hours with members of the President's team and people close to them. I spoke to hundreds of Ukrainians since 2022, including soldiers, civilians, politicians, artists, religious leaders, journalists, economists, historians and technologists. I listened to hundreds of hours of programs that both support and criticize the President in Ukraine and Russia in the United States. I've read countless books about this war and the long arc of history that led up to it. I forced to recommend too, at this moment, I would say the Rusi Ukrainian War by Sir Hiplohi and the Showman by Simon Schuster, which is a good personal behind the scenes biography of the President focused on 2022. But there are many, many more. This is why I can comfortably say that he is a truly singular and remarkable human being. It was an honor and pleasure to talk with him on and off the mic.

自从2022年以来，我与总统团队的成员及其身边的人进行了长时间的对话。我与数百名乌克兰人交流过，包括士兵、平民、政治家、艺术家、宗教领袖、记者、经济学家、历史学家和技术专家。我听了数百小时支持和批评乌克兰总统和俄罗斯总统的节目。我阅读了无数关于这场战争及其长久历史背景的书籍。如果让我在此刻推荐几本书，我会提到希普洛希爵士的《俄乌战争》和西蒙·舒斯特的《表演者》，这本书是关于总统2022年个人生活幕后故事的优秀传记。但其实还有更多书籍值得推荐。这也是为什么我可以自信地说，他是一位真正独特而杰出的人。能够在公共场合和私下与他交谈，是一种荣耀和愉悦。

Now, it is true that I plan to travel to Moscow and to speak with President Vladimir Putin. And I hope to be back in Kiev as well, as President Zelensky said, this was our first of many more meetings. In all these cases, I seek to do my small part in pushing for peace. And in doing all this, I'm deeply grateful for the trust people have given me on all sides. For the people attacking me, sometimes lying about me, for the critics in the stands, chanting the latest slogans of the mass hysteria machine like the sheep and animal farm. I love you too. And I assure you that drawing lines between good and evil on a world map is much easier than seeing that line between good and evil in every human being, including you and me. This is what I try to do. I'm simply a human being who seeks to find and surface the humanity in others. And as I've said, no amount of money, fame, power, access can buy my opinion or my integrity.

现在，没错，我计划前往莫斯科与普京总统会面，并希望能回到基辅。正如泽连斯基总统所说，这只是我们许多会面中的第一次。在所有这些情况下，我都希望尽自己的一份微薄之力推动和平。为此，我非常感激各方给予我的信任。对于那些攻击我、甚至诬蔑我的人，对于那些坐在看台上批评的人，他们就像动物庄园里的羊群，跟随大众疯狂的口号。我也爱你们。我想告诉你们，在世界地图上划分善恶界限，要比在每个人身上、包括你我之间，看到善恶界限容易得多。这就是我努力的目标。我只是一个希望发掘他人人性的普通人。正如我所说，没有金钱、名声、权力或其他任何因素能买断我的观点或我做人的原则。

Now, finally, please allow me to briefly overview some history to give background for several topics that President Zelensky references in this conversation. I recommend my conversation with Sir Hiplohi and many others about the history of the region. But here, let me start with 1991, when Ukraine declared its independence and the Soviet Union collapsed. From this point on, Russia-Ukraine relations were defined in large part by whether Ukraine aligned more with Russia or with the West, meaning Europe, United States, NATO, and so on. In 2004, with the Orange Revolution, a pro-Western candidate, Viktor Ushenko became president. In 2010, it went the other way, a pro-Russia candidate, Viktor Yanukovych became president.

现在，请允许我简要回顾一些历史，为泽连斯基总统在谈话中提到的几个主题提供背景。我推荐大家阅读我与希普洛爵士及其他人的有关该地区历史的对话。但在这里，我从1991年开始说起，那时乌克兰宣布独立，苏联解体。自那时起，俄乌关系很大程度上取决于乌克兰是更倾向于俄罗斯，还是与西方，即欧洲、美国、北约等保持一致。2004年，随着橙色革命的爆发，亲西方的候选人维克多·尤先科当选总统。而在2010年，情况发生逆转，亲俄的候选人维克多·亚努科维奇成为总统。

The internal tensions grew, and in 2013, Euromaidan protests broke out over Yanukovych's decision to suspend talks with the European Union in favor of closer ties with Russia. This set forward a chain of important events in 2014. On the politics front, Yanukovych was ousted and fled to Russia, leading to the election of a pro-Western president. Also, in 2014, on the war front, Russia annexed Crimea, and war broke out in the dumb-ass region of eastern Ukraine, which eventually killed over 14,000 people and continued all the way to 2022, when on February 24, 2022, Russian forces initiated a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. This is when the world started to really pay attention.

内部分歧加剧，2013年，因亚努科维奇决定中止与欧盟的谈判而转向与俄罗斯更紧密的关系，爆发了“欧盟大街”抗议活动。这引发了2014年一系列重要事件。在政治方面，亚努科维奇被罢免，并逃往俄罗斯，随后乌克兰选举了一位亲西方的总统。同样在2014年，战争方面，俄罗斯吞并克里米亚，并在乌克兰东部顿巴斯地区爆发战争，导致超过14,000人死亡。战争一直持续到2022年。2022年2月24日，俄军发动了对乌克兰的全面入侵，这时世界才开始真正关注这一冲突。

Now, some history of peace talks. Vladimir Zelensky won the presidency in 2019, and he discusses in this conversation the ceasefire agreements he made with Vladimir Putin in 2019, which was one of many attempts at peace, from the two minsk agreements in 2014 and 2015, to a series of ceasefire agreements in 2018, 19 and 20, all of which failed, in part or in whole. All this shows just how difficult ceasefire and peace negotiations are, but they are not impossible. It is always worth trying, over and over again, to find the path to peace. I believe that presidents Zelensky, Putin and Trump should meet soon after January 20 this year and give everything they got to negotiate a ceasefire and security guarantees that paved the way for a long-lasting peace.

现在，让我们来回顾一下和谈的历史。弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基在2019年当选乌克兰总统，他在谈话中提到他在2019年与弗拉基米尔·普京达成的停火协议。这是众多和平尝试之一。2014年和2015年的两次明斯克协议，到2018、2019和2020年的一系列停火协议，都未能部分或完全成功。这一切都表明，停火和和平谈判是多么困难，但并非不可能。我们始终应该反复尝试，寻找通往和平的道路。我相信，泽连斯基、普京和特朗普应该在今年1月20日之后尽快会面，全力以赴地商讨停火和安全保障，为持久和平奠定基础。

We discussed several ideas for this in this conversation. As I said, this was one of my main goals here, to push for peace. This trip to Kiev and this conversation was a truly special moment for me in my life. It is one I will never forget. So to reflect, I say a few more words and answer some questions at the very end if you like to listen. But here, let me say thank you to everyone for your support over the years. It means the world. And now, a quick few second mention of each sponsor, check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. There are no sponsor reads in the middle, so you know, you can skip these, but I do try to make them interesting in case you stick around.

我们在这次谈话中讨论了几个想法。正如我所说，推动和平是我在这里的主要目标之一。这次前往基辅的旅行和这次谈话对我来说是真正特别的时刻，让我终生难忘。为了回顾这段经历，我会再说几句话，并在最后回答一些问题，如果你愿意听的话。在此，我感谢大家多年来的支持，这对我意义重大。接下来，我会简要提到每个赞助商，详细信息可以在描述中找到，这是支持本播客的最佳方式。由于中途没有广告插入，所以你可以跳过这些，但如果你选择继续听，我会尽量让它们保持有趣。

In either case, still please check out the sponsors by their stuff. It's the best way to support this podcast. We've got notion for notes and team collaboration, GitHub for all things programming, including with the help of AI, AG1 for health, elements for electrolytes, 8 sleep for naps, and better help for your mind. If you want to get in touch with me for whatever reason, go to lexfeedment.com slash contact. And now onto the full ad reads. This episode is brought to you by notion, a note taking and team collaboration tool. I believe I mentioned it at the end of the podcast is something I used regularly. It's a big part of my podcast prep and research process. I currently only use it at the computer when I'm doing really sort of rigorous systematic note taking.

无论如何，请务必查看一下赞助商们的产品。支持他们是对该播客最好的支持。我们有 Notion 用于笔记和团队协作，GitHub 用于所有编程相关的事宜，包括 AI 帮助的部分，AG1 负责健康支持，Elements 提供电解质补充，8 Sleep 提供小憩的好工具，还有 Better Help 关心心理健康。如果您想与我联系，请访问 lexfeedment.com/contact。现在进入完整的广告播报。本集由 Notion 赞助，它是一款笔记和团队协作工具。我在播客结束时提到过，我经常使用它。它是我准备播客和进行研究的重要部分。目前，我只在电脑上使用它，进行非常严格和系统的笔记记录。

But it is, like I mentioned, really the best integration of AI that I've used in any note taking application. I'm a bit delirious at the moment because through the insane amount of work that had to be done to bring together the translation for this episode with President Zelensky, I've gotten very little sleep. So here I am trying to put together a few words when the neurons required to assemble said words are just not firing. Anyway, the amount of research, the amount of note taking that had to do, just the chaos, the world pool, the overwhelming amount of notes that I took across many books and blog posts. And I was listening to just a large number of conversations from all different kinds of perspectives. And I'm not sure those notes were sort of directly useful, but they're building up a knowledge base.

但正如我提到的，这是我在任何笔记应用程序中使用过的最佳AI集成。我现在有点精疲力竭，因为为了完成与泽连斯基总统这一集的翻译，我几乎没怎么睡觉。所以，现在我试图拼凑几句话，但大脑却运行不畅。总之，为了这一集做的研究、记录的笔记实在太多了，简直是一片混乱，仿佛置身于漩涡中。我从许多书籍和博客文章中记录下了大量笔记，并从不同的角度听了许多谈话。我不确定这些笔记是否直接有用，但它们正在构建知识基础。

They're building up an intuition. They're making sure that I have a chance to understand. So anyway, notion played a big part of that. Try Notion AI for free when you go to notion.com slash Lex. That's all lowercase notion.com slash Lex to try the power of notion AI today. This episode is also brought to you by a new sponsor, but obviously one I've used for many, many years, it's GitHub and GitHub co-pilot.

他们正在培养一种直觉。他们确保我有机会理解。所以，不管怎样，Notion在其中起了很大的作用。当你访问 notion.com/lex 时，可以免费试用 Notion AI。网址是小写的 notion.com/lex，立即体验 Notion AI 的强大功能。本期节目还由一个新赞助商赞助，但显然是我多年来一直使用的，就是 GitHub 和 GitHub co-pilot。

So GitHub for people who somehow don't know if you're listening to this and you're not a developer, it's basically a place where developers go to be happy and to collaborate and to share and to build, especially for people who are part of the open source world. So it really is a magical place. And also they were pioneers in the AI, as is the coding space with GitHub co-pilot. Now GitHub co-pilot is not just available in VS code. It's also available in Neo VIM. It's available in all the JetBrains IDEs. I've used JetBrains for a long time and loved it. And eventually drifted away. Still have not tried Neo VIM. I probably should. VIM Neo VIM. That's what all the cool kids are using.

所以，对那些可能不太了解的人来说，GitHub是一个让开发者感到快乐、进行协作、分享和构建的地方，特别是对于参与开源项目的人来说，这里真的是一个神奇的地方。此外，GitHub也是AI和编码领域的先锋，推出了GitHub Copilot。现在，GitHub Copilot不仅可以在VS Code中使用，也可以在Neo VIM和所有JetBrains的IDE中使用。我用了很长时间JetBrains，非常喜欢它，后来逐渐不怎么用了。不过我还没有尝试过Neo VIM，可能该试试了，因为许多时髦的开发者现在都在用它。

Anyway, GitHub co-pilot and all the different features of AI assisted coding that they're continually developing are available in those IDs. As I mentioned at the end of the episode, I was an Emacs user for probably over 20 years, way more than 20 years. So I don't remember exactly when, but a few months ago, I switched to VS code. And that was just such a light bulb moment. It took a little bit of time to get adjusted. You know, I missed a bunch of stuff in Emacs, especially because I customized everything with Lisp, which is what Emacs is written in.

无论如何，GitHub Co-pilot和他们不断开发的各种AI辅助编程功能都可以在那些IDE中使用。就像我在这一集的结尾提到的，我曾经是Emacs用户，可能用了超过20年，远远超过20年。所以我不太记得确切的时间，但几个月前，我转到了VS Code。这真是一个“醍醐灌顶”的时刻。虽然花了一些时间去适应，你知道的，我很想念Emacs中的很多东西，尤其是我用Lisp（Emacs所用的编程语言）定制的一切。

And it's the sort of the backend customization is written in Lisp and Lisp is its own sort of programming language with an aura and a spirit that permeated my BA for a long time. So it took a little bit of time to get used to VS code. But really, the magic of copilot is the thing that allowed me to transition so quickly. And they're facing a lot of steep competition right now. So I'm excited just how seriously they're taking this competitive space of AI assisted coding and developers win. The more competition, the more features developers win. And I as a developer myself, just full of joy when I get to pair program with a good L.

这句话的大意是：后端的定制部分是用Lisp编写的，而Lisp是一种独特的编程语言，长期以来在我的学士学位学习中对我影响深远。因此，我花了一些时间才习惯VS Code。但实际上，Copilot的神奇之处让我能够迅速完成过渡。现在他们面临着许多激烈的竞争，所以我很兴奋看到他们对这个AI辅助编码的竞争领域如此认真。竞争越激烈，功能就越多，开发者就越受益。作为开发者，我感到非常高兴，因为我能与一个优秀的AI一起进行配对编程。

Anyway, get started with GitHub copilot for free today at g h dot IO slash copilot. This episode is also brought to you by AG one and all in one daily drink to support better health and P performance. I've been traveling crazy places, intense schedules, just chaos, taking risks, all that kind of stuff. So to get back to where I can drink a G one and have for brief most of time the feeling of home is really nice. And a G one for whatever reason is the thing that makes me feel like home. It's the symbol of the daily habits that I do when I have my shit together. And I'm exercising and I'm eating okay and making sure that I'm getting the nutrition I need.

无论如何，今天就可以免费开始使用 GitHub Copilot，只需访问 gh.io/copilot。这一集还为您带来了 AG1——一种支持更好健康和表现的全能每日饮品。我一直在疯狂地旅行，日程紧张，处于混乱中，冒着各种风险，所以能够回到我可以喝 AG1 的状态，大部分时间都有家一样的感觉，真的很好。而且无论出于什么原因，AG1 就是让我有家一样感觉的东西。它象征着我在生活有条不紊时养成的日常习惯：锻炼身体，合理饮食，并确保获得所需的营养。

So in that sense, it's good to be home. They'll give you a one month supply of fish oil when you sign up at drink, a G one dot com slash Lex. This episode is also brought to you by element, my daily zero sugar and delicious electrolyte mix. Now some number of package of element I actually did bring to Ukraine to Eastern Europe to Europe. As I'm traveling, it's just so easy to travel with. And especially when I'm fasting for 24 hours or more, which I was doing not by choice, but for the flexibility that it enables, you know, electrolytes really help me avoid the headaches associated with not consuming enough calories or fasting or eating only meat or all that kind of stuff.

所以在这个意义上，待在家里挺好的。当你访问 drinkag1.com/lex 注册时，他们会给你一个月的鱼油供应。本集还由 Element 赞助，这是一种我每天都用的零糖美味电解质混合饮料。我旅行时带了不少 Element 的包装袋到乌克兰、东欧和欧洲去。出门旅行携带它真的很方便。尤其是当我禁食24小时或更长时间时（这并不是我自愿的，而是为了更灵活的安排），电解质真的可以帮助我避免因为没有摄入足够热量或禁食，或者只吃肉而引发的头痛问题。

It really helps make sure that you avoid what people call the keto flu. But I find that when I'm fasting or doing really low carbs at any stage, it just makes me feel better if I make sure the electrolytes are correct and the same is true with intense exercise. So get a simple pack for free with any purchase. Try to drink element dot com slash Lex. This episode is brought to you by A sleep and it's pod for ultra and yes, the irony of the fact that I'm haven't slept for probably 40 hours and I'm about to crash the irony of the fact that I am talking or attempting to about a really, really nice mattress. I just can't wait. I can't wait. It cools the bed, warm blanket. It really is. It's an escape from the insanity, the cruelty the madness of the world. Yeah. So I look forward to that. I look forward to that whenever I take a power nap or trying to get a full night's sleep. Yeah. It's a little raspous from the madness of the world. Go to A sleep dot com slash Lex and use code Lex to get $350 off the pod for ultra.

这真的有助于确保你避免所谓的“酮流感”。不过我发现，当我在禁食或任意阶段摄入极低碳水化合物时，如果确保电解质正确，我会感觉更好。这对于高强度锻炼也是如此。所以在任何购买中免费获得一个简单的包。访问trytodrinkelement.com/lex试试看。本集节目由A Sleep及其Pod for Ultra赞助，是的，讽刺的是，我可能已经40小时没睡了，正要崩溃，却在谈论一个非常非常好的床垫，我真的迫不及待。我迫不及待了。它可以给床降温，加上温暖的毯子，真的能让人逃离这个疯狂、残酷、混乱的世界。所以，我期待着无论是小憩还是尝试一整夜的安眠。是的，这真是从疯狂世界中稍作休息。访问asleep.com/lex并使用代码Lex可享$350优惠。

This episode is also brought to you by better help spelled H E L P help is difficult for me to explain. The kind of things that war does to people's minds to how they see the world, how they interact with each other. I've seen a lot of pain in my travels that breaks my heart. So that said, the human mind is remarkably resilient to suffering. And that too gives me a kind of hope that no matter what the human spirit prevails and flourishes. Sometimes it takes years. Sometimes it takes generations, but it does flourish. Anyway, I'm reminded of that from better hope. It's a service that helps you figure out what you need to match with a license therapist in under 48 hours. You can check them out at better help dot com slash Lex and save in your first month. That's better helped dot com slash Lex.

本集节目也由BetterHelp赞助。BetterHelp的拼写是H-E-L-P。对于我来说，帮助是很难解释的。战争对人们心灵的影响，对他们看待世界和彼此互动的方式，我很难用语言描述。我在旅途中看到过许多痛苦，令我心碎。尽管如此，人类的心灵在面对苦难时展现出惊人的恢复能力，这也让我感到一种希望——无论面临什么困难，人类的精神最终都会胜利并繁荣。有时候这需要数年，有时候需要几代人，但最终都会实现繁荣。不管怎样，BetterHelp让我想起了这一点。这是一项服务，可以帮助你在48小时内找到合适的持证治疗师。你可以访问betterhelp.com/lex，在第一个月可以享受折扣。网址是betterhelp.com/lex。

This is a Lex Friedman podcast. And now dear friends, here's the president of Ukraine, Volatimir Zelensky. If we can explain why the Ukrainian language is very important, our conversation will be most effective and impactful if we speak in Russian. I speak Russian perfectly, of course. And I understand everything you are talking about. However, I can't respond in Russian the entire interview. It's because this is how it is today. I am not making anything up. You can see it all for yourself. You can feel and hear it. Today, there were 73 missile attacks against us. And people were killed. There were over 100 drones today. And this is a daily occurrence.

这是一个Lex Friedman的播客节目。亲爱的朋友们，现在请听乌克兰总统弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基讲话。如果我们能解释为什么乌克兰语非常重要，那么我们的对话在用俄语进行时将会是最有效和有影响力的。我当然说俄语非常流利，并且能理解你们说的每一句话。然而，我无法用俄语完成整个采访。这就是今天的现状，我没有夸大其词。你们可以亲眼看到、亲身感受和听到。今天，我们遭受了73次导弹袭击，还有无辜的人遇难。今天还有100多架无人机袭来，而这已成为每天的常态。

The people who attack us, they speak Russian. They attack people who were only recently told that this was actually in defense of Russian speaking people. And this is why I respect neither the leader or director of today's Russia nor the people. I just, that's it. And I don't think that you can just pretend that nothing is happening and give Putin a pass once again for saying that we are one people, that we speak one language, etc. They speak the language of weapons. That is a fact. And we are peaceful people, peaceful people who want to protect themselves and defend their freedom and their human choice.

攻击我们的人说俄语。他们攻击的对象，才刚刚被告知这实际上是为了保护俄语使用者。因此，我既不尊重今天俄罗斯的领导者和决策者，也不尊重这些人。就这样。我认为你不能假装什么都没发生，也不能再次放任普京声称我们是一个民族，说我们说同一种语言，等等。事实是：他们使用武器这种语言。而我们是热爱和平的人，是想保护自己、捍卫自由和人类选择的和平之人。

You know, at the beginning of the war, I addressed Russians in Russian. Zero effect. They're mute. They do not listen. They did not listen. Some are afraid. Some have other issues. They have different reasons. It's like when a person is drowning, drowning and people walk by because they can't hear them. And someone walks on by crying, afraid to save them. It doesn't change anything for the one drowning. They need someone to help them. This is why I honestly despise these people as they are deaf. They began the occupation in the supposed defense of the Russian language. And that's why with all due respect, I would like to give an interview in Ukrainian.

你知道吗，在战争初期，我用俄语向俄罗斯人讲话。结果是零反应。他们沉默不语。他们不听，也没有听。一些人是害怕，还有一些人有其他问题。他们的原因不同。这就像一个人在溺水，经过的人因为听不见所以继续走，而另一个人则因为害怕而哭泣，却不敢去救他们。这对溺水的人来说毫无改变。他们需要有人伸出援手。这就是为什么我真心对这些人感到厌恶，因为他们充耳不闻。他们以所谓保卫俄语为名开始了占领。所以在此，我想郑重其事地用乌克兰语接受采访。

This is very, this is very important to me. If there are some points that you want me to explain in Russian, I can certainly do that. I can certainly occasionally speak Russian. But in general, in general, no, I'm not sure that that you will understand me completely. Despite your Ukrainian roots, you are a citizen of the United States, right? Yes. That's why I'm surprised that you don't understand. Well, it was a long time ago. I understand that it was a long time ago. Moreover, a lot has changed. A lot has changed. If I may please allow me to say this in Russian. Yes, many things have changed, but I have hope. I hope that today many Russians will hear this, that Vladimir Putin will hear this, that the American president Donald Trump and the American people will hear this, that everyone will hear this.

这对我来说非常重要。如果有些观点你希望我用俄语解释，我当然可以做到。我偶尔可以说俄语。但是，总的来说，我不确定你是否能完全理解我。尽管你有乌克兰血统，但你是美国公民，对吧？是的。这就是为什么我惊讶你不明白。嗯，那已经是很久以前的事了。我理解那是很久以前的事了。而且，很多事情已经改变了。很多事情已经改变了。如果可以的话，请允许我用俄语说：是的，很多事情已经改变，但我心存希望。我希望今天许多俄罗斯人会听到这个，希望普京会听到这个，希望美国总统特朗普和美国人民会听到这个，希望每个人都会听到这个。

And yes, Ukrainian language is important symbolically. But what is also important is that we understand each other well. Or Donald Trump? Is it important for Donald Trump, whether I speak Russian or not? Yes. Because unfortunately, and it hurts to admit, but I cannot speak or understand Ukrainian yet. So your, your wit, dynamism and your humanity will not come through as well and as quickly. Remember, I need to wait for two to three seconds to hear it. You have a great sense of humor, great stories. With an interpreter translating, I simply won't see this, but I understand that it's painful.

是的，乌克兰语在象征意义上很重要。但同样重要的是，我们要能够很好地理解对方。对于特朗普来说，我是否会说俄语重要吗？是的。因为遗憾的是，并且我不得不承认，我还无法说或听懂乌克兰语。所以你的机智、活力和人性无法很好并迅速地传达给我。请记住，我需要等待两到三秒才能听到翻译。你有很好的幽默感和精彩的故事。但通过翻译，我就看不到这些，我理解这很让人难过。

Another reason is that I hoped we could show that even though it is sometimes said that Russian is banned in Ukraine. This is not true. I'm speaking Russian now, right? We have people who speak Russian. This is not true. Really, it's not. It's really not true. We disrespect Russian now because of Russians. That's all. When they were saving Russian speakers, they killed Russian speakers, many people who actually, many of whom are in the East, right? In the East, they live, lived in the East. They destroyed their houses, destroyed their lives. It's not a rhetorical thing. It's not all talk and blah, blah, blah. I don't have time for blah, blah, blah. Yes. So it's a very, very, very important and sensitive moment.

另一个原因是，我希望我们能表明，尽管有时有人说俄语在乌克兰被禁止，但这并不是真的。我现在就在说俄语，对吧？我们有讲俄语的人。这不是事实。真的，不是真的。我们现在不尊重俄语是因为俄罗斯人的行为，仅此而已。当他们“拯救”讲俄语的人时，他们实际上杀害了许多讲俄语的人，其中许多住在东部，对吧？他们住在东部，却被摧毁了房屋和生活。这不是一句空话，不是空谈和废话。我没有时间去废话。这的确是一个非常重要且敏感的时刻。

The message is that we are not one nation. We are not the same country. We're different countries. Yes, different countries. I think what is most important is what we're talking about. Not how. We're speaking about it. This is what I think. You're a smart guy. So you have a lot of experience and dialogue of this kind. That's why I think you will understand me. Yeah. Anyway, I think it is far better for Donald Trump to hear my English, not my Russian. Your English is much better than my Ukraine. You're getting better and better. That's true. I'm a very honest guy. That's why I will be very honest with you. Your Ukrainian is not very good, but we will work on it. Yes. I have many flaws. That's one of them. Sometimes I can speak English. Sometimes as I understand, we can be very flexible, right? Very flexible. Spanish, Swahili. Yeah, you see? Yeah. I have your own language. You need to understand this.

这段话的意思是表达我们不是一个国家，我们是不同的国家，我认为最重要的是我们谈论的内容，而不是如何表达这个问题。我认为你是一个聪明的人，有很多类似的经验和对话，这就是我为什么认为你会理解我的原因。不管怎样，我认为让特朗普听我的英语比听我的俄语要更好。你的英语比我的乌克兰语好多了，你在不断进步。这是真的，我是个非常诚实的人，所以我会诚实地告诉你，你的乌克兰语不太好，但我们会改进的。是的，我有很多缺陷，这就是其中一个。有时我可以说英语，有时候我们可以很灵活，对吧？非常灵活。西班牙语、斯瓦希里语，对，就是这样。你有自己的语言，你需要理解这一点。

By the way, Javier understood me without any words. The language of love, maybe. Of respect. Respect. I respect him. I had a very good conversation with him. Really brilliant. May I sometimes speak Russian and sometimes English? Yes. You can use any language you like. I think that's a very good rule for this first meeting between us. As you said, maybe we will meet in the future for the second time. Second and third and fourth? Yeah. This is good. You can ask questions in the language you'd like, and I will answer in the language I can. Well, you said you wanted to meet by the sea at some point. So for our next meeting, let's meet by the sea. With pleasure. Next time, it would be much better to meet by our Ukrainian Black or our Azov Sea. You know, I've been to a lot of, I have traveled to many cities in Ukraine, but I have never been to Odessa. And everyone tells me that and I don't know why. You have to. Can you explain to me why everyone loves Odessa so much? What's there? You know, what's in Odessa? That's how they say it? What's there? In Odessa, we've got it all. Odessa, I love Odessa because of its particular temperament. People have their own accent and it's so, there are many nationalities, you know, there are a lot of stories, authentic Odessa cuisine. By the way, you know, the cuisine is very different from others. The dishes are not like any other dishes and everything is very tasty. Also, there are beautiful people and today, you know, you understand people very well, especially after the attacks on Odessa. You understand what the people are like, just how Odessaites are, very Ukrainian. And that's very cool. I love Odessa. I go there several times a year. I go there several times a year now because, well, now because of strengthening of air defense systems because of this grain corridor, etc. I go there more often. They have the sun there. They have the sea. It's Ukraine and it's very cool there.

顺便说一下，哈维尔在没有任何语言交流的情况下理解了我。也许是爱的语言，或者说是尊重的语言。尊重。我尊重他。我和他进行了非常愉快的对话，真的很棒。可以有时候说俄语，有时候说英语吗？可以。你可以用任何你喜欢的语言。我认为这是我们第一次见面的一个很好的规则。正如你所说，也许我们以后会再次见面。第二次、第三次、第四次？是的，这很好。你可以用你喜欢的语言提问，我会用我能说的语言回答。嗯，你说过你希望有一天在海边见面。那么下次见面就到海边吧，非常乐意。下次，最好是在我们的乌克兰黑海或亚速海见面。你知道，我去过乌克兰很多城市旅行，但我从未去过敖德萨。每个人都告诉我，我也不知道为什么。你必须去。你能跟我解释一下为什么每个人都那么喜欢敖德萨吗？那里的魅力是什么？你知道，敖德萨有什么特别之处？正如他们说的那样，敖德萨应有尽有。我爱敖德萨，因为它有独特的气质。人们有自己的口音，那里有许多民族，很多故事，还有正宗的敖德萨美食。顺便说一下，你知道吗，那里的美食与其他地方不同，菜肴与众不同，一切都很美味。此外，还有美丽的人们，尤其是在敖德萨遭受袭击之后，你会对那里的人们有更深的理解，知道敖德萨人是什么样的，非常有乌克兰特色。那真的很酷。我爱敖德萨。我现在每年去那里几次，因为现在由于加强防空系统和谷物走廊等原因，我去得更频繁了。那里的阳光和大海，还有乌克兰的风情，真的很棒。

Well, when you come and visit me in Texas as a guest for the third time. With pleasure. Let's do this. How about you, my friend Joe Rogan and I will go get some Texas barbecue together. Who will pay? That's a good question. Poutine. Poutine. For everything. He has to pay. Well, yes, we'll invite him to. No, no, no, no. Okay. Without him. Okay, I get it. Understood. But if the Rome statute will be accepted by your government before this moment. By the way, I don't know if you know this, but Joe has a great comedy club in Austin. Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan, yes. And I think that as a person who respects comedy and stand up comedy, it would be interesting for you to have a look at it.

好，当你第三次作为客人来德克萨斯拜访我的时候。非常乐意。那就这么办吧。我建议你、我的朋友乔·罗根和我一起去吃德州烧烤。谁来付钱呢？这是个好问题。普廷。普廷。全部由他来付。嗯，是的，我们会邀请他。不，不，不。好的，我明白了。不过如果在那之前你的政府接受《罗马规约》的话。顺便说一下，不知道你知不知道，乔在奥斯汀有个很棒的喜剧俱乐部。乔·罗根。是的，乔·罗根。我认为作为一个尊重喜剧和单口喜剧的人，你会觉得去看看很有趣。

No, no, he is. I know him and I saw a lot of different videos. He's a very talented person. So it would be a pleasure if you invite me and I'm able to do it. I'm a I am a little bit busy. Yeah. But if I'll be if I'll be in the United States, I hope that I will have a conversation and a meeting with President Trump. And of course, during my visit, if I'll have the time, it would be a pleasure if you'll invite me with pleasure. You know what? I will pay. Good. Yeah. You know, I had to think about it, but you are the president. Yes, with you, with pleasure. When the war is over, please come. Thanks for my less busy. Thanks so much.

不，不，他确实是。我认识他，也看过很多不同的视频。他是个非常有才华的人。如果你邀请我，我会很高兴参加，只是我现在有点忙。不过，如果我在美国，我希望能和特朗普总统交谈和会面。当然，如果访问期间我有时间，您邀请我参加，我会非常乐意。你知道吗？我会出钱。对，我考虑过了，但您是总统。是的，和您一起，我非常乐意。当战争结束时，请来访。谢谢，我会少一些忙碌。非常感谢。

If we can go back many years, World War Two, tell me the story of grandfather who fought in World War Two. My grandfather, he graduated from the military, military academy. And from the very beginning of the war, he went to fight. He was in the infantry and he fought through the entire war. He had many wounds. As they used to say back then, his chest is covered in metals. And it's true. He had more than 30. Yes, more than 30. He was the kind of man. He was such a serious man. I loved him very much. And we had a very close relationship.

如果我们可以回到许多年前，回到二战时期，请告诉我关于曾在二战中参战的祖父的故事。我的祖父从军校毕业。从战争一开始，他就去参战了。他在步兵部队服役，并参加了整个战争。他身上有很多伤痕，正如当时人们常说的，他的胸口挂满了勋章。这是真的，他有超过30枚勋章。是的，超过30枚。他是那种非常严肃认真的人。我非常爱他，我们之间的关系非常亲密。

He didn't like to tell details about the war. He never, he never boasted. Although I asked him as a boy would, how many fascists did you kill? He never talked about it. He believed that the war was a great, a great tragedy, a tragedy for everyone. And Ukraine was occupied and it was a tragedy for Ukraine, a tragedy for Europe and a tragedy for the Jewish people. His own brothers, his entire family were executed. They were tortured by fascists who had occupied Ukraine and their village. His father was the head of the village and he was killed. They were shot. It was a mass, a mass grave, right? Yes, it was a communal burial. Some of them were killed outright and others were, they were buried alive.

他不喜欢讲述战争的细节，也从不吹嘘。虽然我小时候像小孩子那样问过他：“你杀了多少法西斯？”但他从未谈及此事。他认为战争是一个巨大的悲剧，对所有人都是如此。乌克兰被占领，对乌克兰、欧洲以及犹太人民而言都是一场悲剧。他的兄弟、整个家庭都被处决了，遭受了占领乌克兰及其村庄的法西斯的折磨。他的父亲是村子的领袖，也被杀害了。他们被枪杀，埋在集体墓地里。有些人当场被杀，另一些人被活埋。

His forebrothers, they all went to war. As soon as the war began, they were all there. He was the only one who had a military education and they all died in the war. He was the only one who came back. He had nobody. He came back and he found my grandmother, his future wife, and she managed what was it called then? I don't know, they don't have them anymore. It was a child care facility in orphanage, so to speak, a place where orphans lived, children who don't have parents, children of war. And she managed this childcare facility with difficult children, as they used to call them, difficult children who went through the war, who saw their parents killed. And this is how they met because these difficult children, they, well, sometimes behave differently. They could steal something, do something bad. There were children in the orphanage. Yes, that's how she met my grandfather. And I loved him very much. And I think that my grandfather, frankly, would never have believed that this war is possible. He would never have believed it. Because he worked in the police after the war. He was a colonel. He worked in criminal investigation all his life. So he fought with bandits all his life after the Second World War.

他的兄长们都去参战了。战争一开始，他们就都上了战场。他们中只有他接受过军事教育，但他们都在战争中牺牲了。他是唯一活着回来的。他孤身一人回到了家乡，后来遇到了我的祖母，也就是他未来的妻子。祖母当时管理着一个类似孤儿院的儿童照料设施，收留失去父母的孩子们，特别是那些在战争中失去双亲的孩子。祖母管理的这些孩子被称为“难管教的孩子”，因为他们经历过战争，看到了父母被杀害。因此，他们有时表现不太好，可能会偷东西或者做坏事。我祖母就是在这个孤儿院里遇到了我祖父，而我非常爱他。我认为，我祖父绝对不敢相信现在的战争会发生。他一定不敢相信。因为在战争结束后，他在警察部门工作了一辈子，是个上校，专门从事刑事调查，与匪徒斗争了一生。

But also, I believe he fought for justice all his life. And we all lived in one apartment. And even after his death, I lived with both of my grandmothers and my parents, two grandmothers, who both lost their husbands. Both of them died. Well, it was an ordinary family, an ordinary family that lived like everyone lived back then in the Soviet Union. And even after the Soviets in the 90s, we lived in one apartment altogether. What else is there to say? But I think the most important thing was values, respect. They gave me an education. My parents gave me an education. No one left me money or apartments. So I didn't inherit anything material. But I believe that our real inheritance is here in our minds and in our hearts. I believe that. This is one second. So if I'm sorry, if you tell a joke, I will laugh about one, two or three seconds later. There's a delay.

我相信他一生都在为正义而奋斗。这方面我确信无疑。我们全家都住在一个公寓里。即使在他去世后，我和父母、两位失去丈夫的祖母一起生活。两位祖母都去世了。我们是一个普通的家庭，就像当时苏联的大多数人一样生活在一起。即使在90年代苏联解体之后，我们仍然住在同一个公寓。当谈到遗产时，我觉得最重要的是价值观和相互尊重。我父母给了我教育，却没有给我留下一些物质财富，也没有财产的继承。我相信，我们真正的遗产存在于我们的头脑和心灵中。这是我所相信的。顺便说一下，如果有人讲笑话，我可能要晚一到三秒才会笑，因为我反应会慢一点。

So an ordinary family, but not an ordinary time, a World War II. Speaking of mass graves, I was at Bob and Yarr yesterday. A large part of my family died there. In moments like this, such a place serves as a stark reminder of the profound historical gravity of the Second World War. I remember, I remember this song from my youth on June 22 at four o'clock. Keve was bombed and the war began. I always wondered how it would feel to live in a moment when everything changed. The path of humanity completely shifts in a single moment, just like that. What do you think about that moment in 1941? Now, after the 2022 invasion, how do you perceive the Second World War after you have witnessed all of it?

所以是一个普通的家庭，但那个时代却不普通，是二战时期。说到乱葬坑，我昨天去过巴比亚尔。我家有很多人在那里去世。在这样的时刻，这样一个地方成为提醒二战历史重要性的鲜明标志。我记得年轻时听过一首歌，说的是六月二十二日四点，基辅被轰炸，战争开始。我常常想，生活在一切瞬间改变的时刻，会是怎样的感受。在某一瞬间，人类的命运路线完全改变了。你怎么看待1941年的那个时刻？现在，在经历了2022年的入侵之后，你如何看待二战？

Well, well, firstly, the war actually started earlier. It started here in Ukraine. Keve was bombed as you quoted, but the war had already begun before that. And I think I perceived it as a start of the full-scale invasion. Well, I think it's hard. It's hard to understand why nobody wants to listen, look at, and analyze history. War, the rise of fascism and Nazism, the emergence of Hitler, Goebbels, and their entire team, at the time, this wasn't just about one party or even one country. It was essentially a wave, a wave of hatred, a wave of one race, one race above the rest. They were, in fact, constructing and ultimately implemented a theory around this idea later, seizing Europe. They created a theory of one nation, one race, one world, their world. Of course, this idea is absolutely senseless, but it has become radicalized over the years and even gained support. A vision of one world, and in principle, the so-called Russian world, the ideology Putin promotes and imposes, it wasn't originally like that. He was a different person back then, or maybe he was always like this, but his rhetoric was different. At the beginning, remember, he talked about the EU and even about Russia's future being tied to NATO. There were even talks of joining the European Union. NATO, he spoke about shared values with the West. That's how it all sounded back then. We must also look at Hitler, who was seriously, before the radical idea of taking over the whole world, he actually made certain steps. Everyone believed he was helping the economy, and to be fair, he did take some steps in that direction, but he was a terrifying person. None of those actions justify him, nor do they excuse his actions. And that's why we cannot look at the Second World War as if it started in 1939. It didn't begin in 1941 either. We need to draw conclusions. When did it start with the weaknesses of the world? The division of European states, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, all of this happened before 1941. People who were more informed, those who dug deeper, whether they were politicians or not, whether they were from different walks of life. This, including business, which was different back then, were speaking about all of this. Hitler won't stop. There'll be a world war. Hitler will destroy nations. Nations. And that's what happened. Someone looked the other way. What I told you about. Europe was sinking then. I gave you an example of it.

战争其实早在更早之前就已经开始了。战争始于乌克兰，当时基辅被轰炸，但事实上，在那之前战争已经悄然爆发了。我个人认为，那是一场全面入侵的开始。令人难以理解的是，为什么没有人愿意倾听、查看并分析历史。战争、法西斯主义和纳粹主义的抬头，希特勒和戈培尔以及他们整个团队的出现，这不仅仅是一个党派或者一个国家的问题。这实质上是一股仇恨浪潮，一种认为某个种族高于其他种族的浪潮。后来，他们构建并真正实施了一种围绕这一思想的理论，占领了欧洲。他们创建了一种关于一个民族、一个种族、一个世界（他们的世界）的理论。这种观点当然是毫无意义的，但随着时间的推移，它变得更加激进，甚至获得了一些支持。所谓的“俄罗斯世界”就是一种类似的思想，这是普京所倡导和施加的意识形态。其实一开始并不是这样的。他当时是个不同的人，或者说他可能一直是这样，只是他的言辞不同。想想最初的时候，他还谈论欧洲联盟，甚至讲到俄罗斯的未来与北约的联系，还谈过加入欧盟的可能。他还讲过与西方分享的价值观。当时就是这样说的。我们也必须回顾希特勒，在他提出占领全世界的极端想法之前，他实际上采取了某些措施。大家都以为他在帮助经济，而公平地说，他确实采取了一些这方面的措施，但他是个令人恐惧的人。没有任何行为可以为他辩护，也不能为他的行为开脱。因此，我们不能简单地将第二次世界大战看作是1939年开始的，它也不是1941年开始的。我们需要得出结论。战争的开始和世界的弱点、欧洲各国的分裂、《莫洛托夫-里宾特洛甫条约》，这些都发生在1941年之前。那些更有见识、深入挖掘的人，无论他们是政治家还是其他各行各业的人，包括当时不同的商业人士，都在讨论这些问题。希特勒不会停止，世界大战会爆发，希特勒会摧毁一个又一个国家。这一切都成为了现实。有人选择视而不见。我给你讲了这些。那时的欧洲正在沉沦，我给你举了一个例子。

But the whole world looked the other way and didn't pay attention and said, no, we can negotiate with him. I'm telling you he is okay. We can negotiate with him. He's just more right-leaning. Or it does not matter what they said. He's just pro, very pro nationalist. This is all nonsense. And this is not the first time. And Hitler isn't the first such case in history. We're dealing with a person who is allowed to stick to this desire to destroy. He was consumed by it and enjoying it. And what happened to Hitler? Now, what about Putin? This invasion was also at four in the morning, around four in the morning. There were missile strikes on Ukraine. This is the same. I believe that intentions are also the same. But more on that later, by the way, you tell me if this is too long, you can stop me. Never long enough. It's beautiful. Okay. So it happened here around four in the morning.

但是，全世界都视而不见，没有注意到，还说，没关系，我们可以和他谈判。我告诉你，他没问题，我们可以和他谈判。他只不过是更偏向右派。或者不管他们怎么说，他只是非常亲民族主义。这都是胡说八道。这也不是第一次。希特勒在历史上也不是第一个这样的例子。我们现在面对的是一个被允许坚持毁灭欲望的人。他被这种欲望吞噬却甘之如饴。希特勒的下场如何？现在，普京又如何？这次入侵也是在凌晨四点，差不多四点钟。乌克兰遭到了导弹袭击。情况还是一样的。我相信意图也是一样的。不过，关于这点稍后再说。顺便说一下，你觉得如果这段太长，告诉我，你可以让我停下来。再长也不够。真是美妙。好的。所以这里发生在凌晨四点钟左右。

I, before this, I must honestly say. Everyone said something, predicted something, etc. But I asked only for one thing, primarily from the United States. If you are sure, if you have the evidence, if you talk to him, and he tells you that there'll be an invasion, if all this scares you. I only asked for two things. Send us weapons, or better yet, strengthen us with preventive measures. So there would be no war. It wasn't the weapons that I was asking for. I asked for sanctions, intimidate him. Please don't say that. If he comes, if he crosses borders, if he kills,

在这一点之前，我必须诚实地说。每个人都说了些什么，预测了些什么等等。但是我只要求了一件事情，主要是向美国请求。如果你们确信、如果你们有证据、如果你们和他谈过，他告诉你会有入侵，如果这些都让你们感到害怕。我只要求两件事。给我们派送武器，或者更好的是，用预防措施来加强我们。这样就不会有战争。我请求的不是武器。我要求的是制裁，威慑他。请不要说那。如果他来了，越过边界，如果他杀人，

we're imposing sanctions. Well, this is complete bullshit. Sorry, but really. Oh, I understand this. Oh, wonderful. Yes. I understood one word. Yeah. So they did not help. I believe that no. And this is a fact. We didn't receive help. If we assume that words are help, well, then yes, we received a lot of it because there were plenty of words, even more than plenty. Yes. Yes. At four in the morning, there were strikes. Morally, is it possible to prepare for war? No. It doesn't happen like you read in books, see in movies and so on. What happens to you?

我们正在实施制裁。好吧，这完全是胡扯。抱歉，但真的是这样。我明白了这一点。哦，太好了。是的，我懂了一个词。所以他们并没有提供帮助。我相信没有。这是事实。我们没有得到帮助。如果我们假设语言可以算作帮助，那是的，我们确实收到了很多帮助，因为有很多话，甚至太多。是的，是的。凌晨四点发生了袭击。从道义上讲，有可能为战争做好准备吗？不可能。事情不会像你在书中读到的那样，也不会像在电影中看到的那样。你会经历些什么？

I was just looking at my wife and children. My children were asleep, but my wife was awake. There were strikes, missile strikes, we heard them. To you as a living person. How can this be? You just can't fully believe this. You just don't understand why now, given everything that happened in World War II, when millions of people died, none of it mattered. Still at four in the morning, around four, three, forty, three, forty five. Remember around this time, yes, there were missile strikes and later, by the way, a few days after, after the first days of the war,

我刚刚看着我的妻子和孩子。我的孩子们已经睡着了，但我的妻子还醒着。我们听到了袭击的声音，导弹袭击。你是一个活生生的人，怎么能接受这样的事呢？你无法完全相信这是真的。考虑到二战中发生的一切，数百万人丧生，但这些都没有改变什么。凌晨四点左右，大概是四点，或者是三点四十、三点四十五的时候，是的，那时有导弹袭击。而且，顺便说一下，战争开始的头几天后的几天里，也发生了类似的袭击。

I spoke with Lukashenko on the phone. And he apologized and he said that it was not me. Missiles were launched from my territory and Putin was the one launching them. These are his words. I have witnesses. And I apologize, he said, but believe me, that's what he told me. Voladya, this is not me. I'm not in charge, he told me. I'm not in charge. These are just missiles. This is Putin. I told him, don't do that. This was done without me. That's it. He just, on the phone, I remember this conversation. I told him that I believed. I told him, you are a murderer too.

我和卢卡申科通了电话，他向我道歉，并表示不是他干的。导弹是从我的领土上发射的，但发动者是普京。这是他的话。我有证人。他说他很抱歉，但要我相信，这就是他告诉我的。Voladya，这不是我干的，我没有负责，他告诉我，我没有负责。这只是导弹，是普京的。我告诉他，不要这么做。这都是在我不知情的情况下完成的。就是这样。我还记得这次电话交谈。我告诉他，我相信他，但我也对他说，你也是个杀人犯。

I'm just saying. And he told me, you must understand, you can't fight the Russians. I told him that we never fought them. I said, it's war. The missiles came from your land, from Belarus. How did you allow this? Then he replied, all right, retaliate then. I still remember him telling me, hit the refinery. You know how much I care about it. Moser oil refinery, is that it? Can't recall. Moser oil refinery. I told him, what are you on about? What retaliation? Forgive me, Voladya. Yes. Yes. This was at five in the morning. No, no, no. This was during the first or maybe the second day,

我只是说说而已。他告诉我，你必须明白，你不能和俄罗斯人对抗。我告诉他，我们从未与他们交战。我说，这是战争。导弹是从你们的领土，也就是白俄罗斯发射的。你们怎么能允许这种事情发生？然后他回答说，好吧，那就反击吧。我还记得他对我说，打击炼油厂。你知道我有多在乎它。莫泽炼油厂，是那个吗？记不清楚了。莫泽炼油厂。我告诉他，你在说什么呢？什么反击？原谅我，沃拉迪亚。是的，是的。这是在凌晨五点。不，不，不。这是第一天或第二天的时候。

second or third day of the war. Yes, I see. Well, after that, I went back home. I was home with my children, with my wife. I just went to my wife very quickly that night at four o'clock. Yes, and just told her, get the children, get ready. You'll probably need to go to my office very soon. And I left. That's it. At this moment, you're no longer a father. What happened to me, unfortunately, because I believe that this is, and not only do I believe, I understand, especially now that all of this is the most important thing, because your country is your family.

战争开始的第二天或第三天。是的，我明白。之后，我回到了家。我和我的孩子们、我的妻子待在家里。那天晚上四点，我匆匆去了我妻子那里。是的，我只是告诉她，带上孩子们，做好准备。你们可能很快就需要去我的办公室。然后我就离开了。就是这样。在这个时刻，你不再是一个父亲。不幸的是，我经历的事情让我明白，现在尤其明白，这一切才是最重要的，因为你的国家就是你的家庭。

The strength is in your family. And this is the most important thing. And I'm the president. And therefore, I had to stop being a father in my own family. And my wife had to do everything. She had to do everything regarding children, regarding safety. And I had to deal with the state because I'm the president. And this is my duty. And I, by the way, taking this very seriously, I went to the office and here we are now. You're very welcome. Well, at that moment, on February 24, 2022, everything changed again, just like in June 1941, everything changed.

家庭是你的力量所在，这是最重要的事情。而我是总统，所以我不得不放弃在自己家庭中做父亲的角色。我的妻子不得不承担所有的事情，包括照顾孩子和保障安全。而我必须处理国家事务，因为我是总统，这就是我的职责。我非常认真地对待这个责任，所以我去了办公室工作，现在我们就在这里。非常欢迎你们。就在2022年2月24日那个时刻，一切再次发生了变化，就像1941年6月一样，一切都变了。

And history took a turn. The history of humanity took a turn. And for you too, you were the president. You were talking about fighting corruption, about the country's freedom, about interesting and innovative reforms. But that morning of February 22, everything changed. Could you tell me about that morning, the details of your actions, when you had to quickly make difficult decisions? What was the process for you? How did you make these decisions? Did you discuss them with people you trust to understand how to respond to this invasion in every technical, political and military aspect? What was the process for you? How did you make the decision? According to our legislation, in principle, I'm the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. So I had to give corresponding orders. Yes, I have a military office. And then later, there was a military headquarters where all key people gathered. This is not only about the military. It's about energy, et cetera, all key things.

历史发生了转折。人类的历史发生了转折。对你而言，你曾是总统，你谈论过反腐败、国家的自由，以及有趣且富有创新的改革。但是在2月22日的早晨，一切都改变了。你能告诉我那天早上的情况吗？你在那时不得不快速做出艰难的决定，你的行动有哪些细节？你的决策过程是什么样的？你是否与信任的人讨论过，以便在技术、政治和军事等各个方面了解如何应对这次入侵？你的决策过程是什么样的？你是如何做出决定的？根据我们的法律，原则上我是乌克兰武装部队的最高统帅。因此，我必须下达相应的命令。是的，我有一个军事办公室，之后还设立了一个军事总部，所有关键人物都在这里聚集。这里不仅涉及军事，还有能源等所有关键的事情。

But at that moment, I made the decisions quickly and without a doubt. And I cannot say that I am just that kind of person. I'm just a living person who believed that if help is needed right now, to help, to help evacuate people, help with children. Several cities were blocked. I was only thinking about how to deliver food there within a day. We did a lot of things, although we understood that they in fact occupy part of our state. And we distributed weapons to people. That's how it was. Trucks came and simply distributed weapons to people so that they could defend the capital to ordinary people just on the street, to ordinary people who understood that if the Russians entered the city, then we would have the same thing that's happening in other cities per the information we received.

那一刻，我迅速且毫不迟疑地做出决定。但我并不认为自己是这样的人。我只是一个普通人，相信在需要帮助的时候就应该去帮忙，去帮助撤离人员，帮助孩子们。几座城市被封锁，我只想着怎么在一天内把食物运送过去。我们做了很多事情，虽然我们知道他们事实上占领了我们国家的一部分。我们还给人们分发武器。就是这样，卡车来了，简单地把武器分发给普通人，让他们能保护首都。那些普通人明白，如果俄军进入城市，我们将面临其他城市正在发生的事，就如同我们收到的信息一样。

Thanks to digitalization, by the way, we had very good digitalization before this. We preserved a lot. And even when they were surrounding certain cities, a lot of things still worked. The banking system, the internet, we had television. And thanks to this, I made several decisions to ensure that people are united and have all the information. Russia is very good at spreading large scale disinformation. Fortunately, I have two decades of experience, two decades of experience managing a production studio, TV channels, and large media resources. I understood that we needed to build an information network very quickly.

得益于数字化，顺便说一句，在此之前我们的数字化就非常出色。我们保存了很多东西。即便当时他们包围了一些城市，很多事物仍然在运作，比如银行系统、互联网和电视。有了这些，我做出了几个决定，以确保人们团结一致并获取所有信息。俄罗斯非常擅长大规模散布虚假信息。幸运的是，我有二十年的经验，管理过制作工作室、电视台和大型媒体资源。我意识到我们需要非常迅速地建立一个信息网络。

Thanks to this, I began to address the people constantly. This happened several times, three to five times a day. In fact, I became that an information source for people who were in cities that were cut off from other information. And it was very important for me to keep all things digital to keep the internet, to stay in touch. With everyone, with all the people, initially, that's the contact we had. And then we also built a media platform where we had all the news agencies, agencies of Ukraine. And this network was called Marathon. And it was also very important for the people to trust us. And people had to receive information. Why? There were waves. There were waves of Russian.

感谢这一机遇，我开始频繁地与人们沟通。这种情况每天发生三到五次。事实上，我成了那些被切断信息渠道的城市里人们的信息来源。对于我来说，保持数字化连接和互联网畅通是极为重要的，这样才能与大家保持联系。起初，这就是我们所有的联系手段。后来，我们还建立了一个媒体平台，汇集了乌克兰的所有新闻机构。这个网络被称为 "马拉松"。对于人们来说，信任我们非常重要，他们需要接收到信息。为什么呢？因为有浪潮，有俄罗斯的浪潮。

On the first day, who said he ran away. I had to go out into the street. I left the office and went outside. I had to do this because I was showing that this was no green screen, you know, to show that it was the street, not some digital, some digital manipulation. I mean, I did these things. Then I touched various objects. Now people might think that these are small things. But I was actually showing that I was in a real place. All of this had an impact. I was absolutely sure my actions and these contexts, several contexts. And then I spoke to the Russians. I addressed Russians. I really did. And then only after that, I gathered. It was the first day when I invited all of the journalists here, wasn't it?

在第一天，有人说他逃跑了。我不得不走到街上。我离开办公室，走到外面。我这样做是为了证明这不是绿幕，而是真实的街道，不是什么数字合成。我是认认真真地做这些事情的。然后我触摸了各种物体。可能有人觉得这些动作很微小，但其实我是想展示自己在一个真实的地方。这一切都产生了一定的影响。我非常确定自己的行动和这些情境产生了影响。然后我对俄罗斯人讲话，确实这样做了。只有在那之后，我才召集大家。这是我第一次邀请所有记者来这里，不是吗？

That was on the first day, I think. Well, not here here to the press center in this building. I talked to journalists. I asked them not to leave because we needed weapons. At that moment, they were handing out rifles to people. And for me, journalists and media platforms were essential voices. There were various journalists from different countries here. And they were essentially stuck. And I asked them for contacts, those who had access to to Russians, Belarusians, kasaks who understood everything, the same information. And I spoke to them. And I spoke to them and spoke in Russian. I told them, you must stop Putin. This is terrible. This is horror. This is war. You must stop him. And if you stand up now, if you speak out and if you go out into the streets, this was very important. I spoke to them in Russian to show them that there was no problem. And that all of these pretexts were made up. This is why it's so painful to talk about the Russian language too, because look, if the person does not want to listen, they will not listen no matter what language we speak.

那是在第一天，我记得。嗯，不是在这里，而是在这栋楼的新闻中心。我和记者们交谈。我请求他们不要离开，因为我们需要武器。当时，他们正在给人们发放步枪。对我来说，记者和媒体平台是非常重要的声音。这里有来自不同国家的记者。他们基本上被困住了。我向他们询问了联系方式，那些能够接触到俄罗斯人、白俄罗斯人、了解一切的哈萨克斯坦人的渠道。我和他们交谈，并且用俄语交流。我告诉他们，你们必须阻止普京。这太可怕了，这是战争。你们必须阻止他。如果你们现在站出来，如果你们发声并走上街头，这是非常重要的。我用俄语跟他们说话是为了向他们表明没有问题，所有这些借口都是捏造的。因此，谈论俄语也是如此令人痛苦，因为你看，如果人不愿意倾听，那么无论我们用什么语言，他们都不会听。

I disagree with you here. I think and hope that many people in Russia will hear us today. They blogged YouTube recently. Are you aware of this in their country? I know. And I simply guarantee that this conversation will travel fast on the internet. Everyone will hear you. They will hear you, including the president of Russia will hear you.

我不同意你的观点。我认为并希望今天会有许多俄罗斯人听到我们的声音。他们最近在YouTube上写博客。你知道这在他们国家的情况吗？我知道。我相信这次对话会在互联网上迅速传播。每个人都会听到，包括俄罗斯总统也会听到你的声音。

This is why I have hope. He is actually deaf, even if he speaks to you. He is deaf by his very nature. Do you understand the difference? You know, for instance, when you talk to Musk, you're talking to an innovator, a scientist about rockets. You talk about how to save on costs and how they land. And on the other hand, Putin doesn't launch rockets to save money, but to kill people. Do you think you can talk to Putin about technology?

这就是我抱有希望的原因。他其实是聋的，即使他和你说话也是如此。他的本质就是聋的。你明白这个区别吗？比如说，当你和马斯克谈话时，你是在和一个关于火箭的创新者和科学家交流。你们会谈论如何降低成本以及火箭如何着陆。而另一方面，普京发射火箭不是为了省钱，而是为了杀人。你认为你能和普京谈论技术吗？

Your guys were interviewing him, and he told them about about tribal history. Do you understand? Imagine a Russian man in his country listening to him. You know what Musk is about? Technology, Mars, artificial intelligence. And this guy, Putin is standing there, bear asked, pontificating about drives. You've got to understand. You think that when you do interviews, like Mr. Tucker, who did an interview there that you're about to make them friends. How could you? What does this have to do with friends?

你们的人在采访他，他向他们讲述了部落历史。你明白吗？想象一下，在俄罗斯，有个男人在听他讲话。你知道马斯克关心的是什么吗？科技、火星、人工智能。而普京就站在那里，夸夸其谈地谈论驾驶，你必须理解，你以为当你采访时，就像Tucker先生在那里做的采访，你就能让他们成为朋友。你怎么能这样认为呢？这和成为朋友有什么关系？

He's different. He is he is simply different, but it's still necessary. A mammoth stands before you. By the way, I must say that when you said bear asked, it was not translated. Could the interpreter please translate? This is so that you can understand. Now he explained everything to me. I understand. That's great. That's great. But we still need to talk. One should always speak with someone who listens.

他与众不同。他，他就是与众不同，但这仍然是必要的。一头猛犸象站在你面前。顺便说一下，我必须说明，当你说"bear asked"时，没有被翻译。请翻译员翻译一下。这是为了让你能理解。现在他向我解释了一切。我明白了。太好了，太好了。但我们仍然需要交谈。我们总是应该和愿意倾听的人交流。

And you must speak when you know that this will benefit you, bring peace and calm to the world, not the other way around. I love President Trump's message when he speaks. I think that we share a position on peace through strength. That is very important. It means that if you are strong, you can speak. And we need to be strong. And Ukraine has to be strong. Strong enough.

当你知道发言会对自己有益、能为世界带来和平与宁静时，你必须开口，而不是反其道而行。我喜欢特朗普总统讲话时传达的信息。我认为我们在通过实力实现和平的立场上有共同点。这非常重要。这意味着如果你够强大，你就可以发言。而我们也需要变得强大。乌克兰必须变得更强大，足够强大。

Otherwise what for? So he you you know who like like Voldemort who must who must not be named. Yes, he's he's like Voldemort. He thrives, subsists and lives on being subjectivized. Instead of isolation, he is offered to step out into the light. He's darkness personified. And you offer him as it were to be subjectivized. Why? There's only one reason. Fear.

否则，为了什么呢？所以他就像伏地魔，你知道的，那种不应该被提及的存在。是的，他就像伏地魔。他依靠被人关注和讨论而生存，而不是被孤立。他被邀请走出来，接受公众的注视。他就是黑暗的化身。而你却让他受到关注。为什么？只有一个原因，恐惧。

And you say, we need to talk. Listen, we need to be in a strong position and not talk, but end the war. Yes. Yes, it is possible through dialogue. We're not opposed to it. You just need to be in a strong position to make the other person want it. Do you think he wants to end the war? That's what you suggested. I think this is naive. I'm sorry. With all due respect, it's naive to think he wants to finish the war.

你说，我们需要谈谈。听我说，我们需要处于强势地位，而不是光说不做，而是结束战争。是的，是的，可以通过对话实现。对此我们并不反对。只是你需要在强势地位，让对方也想要结束战争。你觉得他想结束战争吗？这是你的建议。我觉得这样的想法很天真。抱歉，恕我直言，认为他想结束战争是天真的。

Let's tell you what, the circumstances, sorry for interrupting. There's something we need. I think that President Trump not only has will, he has all these possibilities. And it's not just talk. I really count on him. And I think that our people really count on him. So he has enough power to pressure him, to pressure Putin, not into wanting to stop it. No, he will not want to, to pressure him to actually stop it. That is the difference. Don't rely on his will, Putin's will to stop. You won't see it. That's what I think. Sorry.

让我告诉你情况，不好意思打断一下。我们有一些需要。我认为特朗普总统不仅有意愿，还有各种可能性。这不仅仅是说说而已。我真的对他寄予厚望，而且我觉得我们的人也真的对他寄予厚望。所以他有足够的力量来施加压力，施压普京，不是要让普京想要停止，而是要逼他真正停止。这是区别。不要依赖于普京会自己想要停下来，你绝对不会看到那一点。这是我的想法。抱歉。

No, sorry. I interrupted you first. But what I would want, I do have what some, what some might call a naive dream of you sitting down with Putin and Trump and negotiating a deal about a ceasefire and together finding a path to long-term peace. And I think this requires strength, requires negotiations. There are a lot of carrots and sticks here that can be used to make a real deal.

不，不好意思。是我先打断了你。不过，我想表达的是，我有一个可能有些天真的梦想，希望你能和普京以及特朗普坐下来谈判，达成停火协议，并共同找到实现长期和平的道路。我认为这需要很大的力量和谈判技巧。这里有很多可以用来达成真正协议的激励和制约因素。

And Trump is very keen on making a deal and ready to negotiate. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. I just really want you and I to be on the same page. It's very important to be in the same information space, extremely important. Let's talk a bit about the ceasefire. Let me describe the situation to you. In December 2019, in Normandy, in Paris, at the Elisé Palace, Macron, Merkel, Putin and I, agreed. On the ceasefire, the U.S. wasn't there.

特朗普非常希望达成协议，并准备进行谈判。我可以问你一个问题吗？当然。我真的希望你我能够达成共识。在同一个信息空间中是极其重要的。让我们谈谈停火问题。我来为你描述一下情况。在2019年12月，在巴黎的诺曼底会议上，法国总统府爱丽舍宫，马克龙、默克尔、普京和我达成了停火协议。美国没有参与。

And this, by the way, was a weak point of the meeting. If you'd like, we can later discuss why they weren't there. It's a security guarantee thing in general. It's Germany's position, etc. We agreed on an exchange of hostages and all for all exchange. We made a deal to exchange everyone for everyone. I think you know that. And there was also a meeting that lasted many hours, a meeting where we made a deal with him. Everyone was tired. It was just the two of us in the end. And I proposed a ceasefire. By the way, no one in Ukraine believed few believed in the ceasefire. And he wanted troop withdrawal. I calculated that if there were a withdrawal of troops from the line of contact the way Russians proposed, it would take 20 years. I proved it to him just in terms of time, square kilometers, namely the length of the line of contact or delimination line. And we agreed on what I told him that it will not work out.

翻译如下：顺便说一下，这次会议有一个弱点。如果你愿意，我们可以稍后讨论他们为何未出席。总体来说，这是一个安全保障的问题，涉及到德国的立场等等。我们达成了一项交换人质的协议，即所有人交换所有人。我想你知道这一点。还有一次进行了许多小时的会议，在会上我们与他达成了协议。大家都很疲惫，最后只剩下我们两人。我提议停火。顺便说一下，乌克兰几乎没有人相信停火。他希望撤军。我计算过，如果按照俄方的提议从接触线上撤军，需要20年。我用时间和平方公里数证明给他看，就是接触线或分界线的长度。我们就此达成了一致，我告诉他这样行不通。

But I had many points because I was deeply involved in the issue. I was involved very deeply. It's my thing in general. If I start doing something, I can't stand there like that guy I spoke about with my ass out. You know, I must be dressed. I must be prepared. I must be prepared better, better than anyone in front of me. You do sports, right? I practice for many years. And we know what fights are like, what boxing is, what type boxing is. This is what I did. And I loved it very much. When you step into the ring, you understand everything pretty much. And so I stepped into it. And I was, I was definitely well prepared. But he wasn't. No, he was not deeply involved in the process. What border? Where is it? How long will it take to disengage troops? And why wasn't he involved? You want to know? Because he wasn't going to do any of this. This is what confused me. If you are not deeply involved in the issue, well, then you it's, it's as if you don't really need the result. That's what I think. So what happened?

但是我有很多观点，因为我深深地参与了这个问题。我参与得非常深入。这是我的风格。如果我开始做某事，我不能像我提到的那个人一样毫无准备。我必须整装待发，我必须做好准备，我必须比任何在我面前的人都准备得更好。你懂的，就像体育。你做运动，对吧？我练了很多年。我们都知道比赛是什么样的，拳击是什么样的，我就做过这个，我非常热爱它。当你走进拳击台时，你几乎会明白一切。所以当我参与进去的时候，我确实已经准备充分。但他没有。他并没有深入参与这个过程。边界在哪里？需要多长时间才能撤军？为什么他没有参与？你想知道吗？因为他根本不打算做其中的任何事情。这让我感到困惑。如果你没有深入参与问题，嗯，那么就好像你并不真正需要结果。这是我的看法。那么，发生了什么？

We agreed that there will be gas continuation, gas transit in 2019. We agreed with him. This was the security for Europe. Merkel asked me for it. And this was extremely important for Germany. We agreed with him. Secondly, we agreed that for him, it was just money. So secondly, we agreed on an exchange. For me, this was the most important thing. For them, gas was, for me, was the people. And this is a fact because I wanted to have a humanitarian advantage. So that there would be further meetings that would lead to sustained peace. And third, ceasefire. ceasefire you spoke about. What happened? The gas contract was signed because he needed it. And by the way, he knew everything about it.

我们同意在2019年继续进行天然气运输。我们和他达成了共识。这对欧洲的安全至关重要。默克尔曾向我提出请求，这对德国尤其重要。我们和他达成了协议。其次，我们一致认为，对他来说，这只是钱的问题。所以，我们同意进行交换。对我来说，最重要的是交换的内容。对他们来说是天然气，而对我来说，是人道主义利益。这是事实，因为我希望通过这种方式获得人道主义优势，从而促成进一步的会谈，实现持久和平。第三，停火。你提到的停火，结果是什么？天然气合同是因为他需要而签的，顺便说一下，他对这件事了解得很清楚。

As for exchange, we took the first step and exchanged the people. Regarding the ceasefire. Well, they started killing us in about a month. So I called him and I told him, we agreed on a ceasefire. Didn't we? Well, it wasn't a piece of toilet paper, was it? This is serious business. Or so it seemed. It really was serious. Merkel, Macron, you and I, we all agreed on this together. A ceasefire is important, isn't it? Not for New Year's because everyone was celebrating New Year's. And now they're offering us a Christmas ceasefire. It's all the same. A ceasefire for two, three days just to get some praise. But this isn't a performance. This isn't some kind of theater. No, this is about people's lives. And that's what happened. After that, I called him a few more times. I think I only had two, three calls with him in total. I asked him for a ceasefire. He told me it couldn't be. We will, we will figure it out now. People from people from the occupied territory, Russians and separatists, they were all there together. They continued to shoot and kill our people. Yes, the front lines were quiet. But they killed people.

关于交换，我们迈出了第一步，进行了人员交换。至于停火，一个月左右，他们又开始杀害我们的人。所以我打电话给他，我对他说，我们不是同意停火了吗？这不是一张废纸，对吧？这可是件严肃的事情。当时看起来确实很严重。默克尔、马克龙、你和我，我们都一起同意这个。停火很重要，不是为了跨年，因为大家都在庆祝新年。现在他们又提议圣诞节停火。没什么区别。停火两三天只是为了得到一些表扬。但这不是演出，也不是某种戏剧。这是关于人们的生命。这就是发生的事情。之后，我又给他打了几次电话。我想我总共只有两到三次通话。我请求他停火，他告诉我不可能。他说他们会解决的。但是来自被占领区的人，俄罗斯人和分裂分子，仍然在那里继续开枪，杀害我们的人。虽然前线平静，但他们杀了人。

They were killing people. And I kept calling him. I called again and again, but there was nothing. Until after a few months, the Russians stopped answering the phone. We did not have any contact since. I wanted another meeting. Like we had a Normandy. I wanted the next meeting. I wanted to find a solution. But the Russians refused. We tried to make it happen through various European countries. And not only European, but the Russians refused. They passed along some kind of bullshit, made excuses. They didn't want it.

他们在杀人。我不停地给他打电话，一次又一次地打，但没有任何回应。直到几个月后，俄罗斯人不再接电话。从那时起，我们就失去了联系。我想再举行一次会议，就像我们在诺曼底那样。我想要下一次会议，我想找到一个解决办法。但俄罗斯人拒绝了。我们通过各种欧洲国家试图促成这个会议，不仅仅是欧洲国家，但俄罗斯人还是拒绝了。他们找了一些借口，推托。他们不想进行会谈。

Meanwhile, they were sending their snipers. We had evidence, living proof, even video evidence, because some of them were captured back then. Those were the snipers in training. They were training them. They were training them. And later those snipers operated in Syria and Africa. These snipers were training in our country. In the east, Ukrainians were living targets. They were shooting from the other side, killing people, women, people, children. They were shooting. It was a hunt.

与此同时，他们派出了狙击手。我们有证据、活生生的证据，甚至还有视频证据，因为当时有些狙击手被捕获。那些是接受训练的狙击手，他们正在训练。这些狙击手后来在叙利亚和非洲行动。这些狙击手是在我国接受训练的。在东部，乌克兰人成为了活生生的目标。他们从另一边开枪，杀死一些人，包括妇女和儿童。这是一场猎杀。

By the way, it was in the Russian speaking region. In the east, where, according to him, everyone is speaking Russian. That's where they were shooting, where the situation currently is the most tense. They killed people. We sent this information, sent pictures. We sent them to the UN, sent them everywhere. We worked very hard, very persistently. I met with everyone, but who thought of Ukraine back then? They didn't notice it much.

顺便提一下，那是在讲俄语的地区。在东部，据他说，那里的每个人都说俄语。那就是他们开枪的地方，也是目前局势最紧张的地方。他们杀了人。我们将这些信息和照片发送出去，发给了联合国，发给了各个地方。我们非常努力地去做这些工作。我和所有人会面，但是那时候有谁关心乌克兰呢？他们并没有太注意到。

They didn't pay much attention to Crimea being illegally occupied either. And to be honest, the United States of America too, everyone was somewhat silent about this issue. That's how it was. It was like that before a full-scale war. I want to ask you a question about the ceasefire. For example, in Mariopul, in Mariopul today. There are American and Ukrainian journalists. And everyone will tell you who had contact, who has contact now with Mariopul, who fled from there in the last minutes, just before the occupation, or who was able to leave to escape after the occupation. Chernoff, who won an Oscar, was among them. And the journalists that left Mariopul, they are here.

他们也没有太关注克里米亚被非法占领的问题。说实话，美国也是，大家对这个问题都有点沉默。这就是当时的情况，就是大战爆发前的样子。我想问你一个关于停火的问题，比如在今天的马里乌波尔。那里有美国和乌克兰的记者。只要是和马里乌波尔有联系，或者在最后一刻逃离占领前的，或是占领后成功逃离的人，都会告诉你有关情况。曾获得奥斯卡奖的切尔诺夫也在其中。这些离开马里乌波尔的记者现在都在这里。

By the way, we had a conversation. They will tell you that 20,000, 30,000 civilians were tortured and buried there. We do not know the number of victims. People who didn't want to work with them, who refused to cooperate with them, people who went on strikes to protest, people who did not want to work with the Russians who occupied Mariopul. And this is one example, just with this city. And I have a question for you. What about the millions of children?

顺便说一下，我们进行了一次对话。他们会告诉你，那里有两万、三万平民被折磨并埋葬。我们不知道受害者的确切数量。那些不愿与他们合作的人，拒绝与他们合作的人，罢工抗议的人，还有那些不愿与占领马里乌波尔的俄罗斯人合作的人。这只是一个例子，仅限于这个城市。我有个问题要问你，那几百万儿童怎么办？

And I will ask you in Russian so that you hear this without delay. What about the millions of children over there? What if we just arranged a ceasefire without understanding what would happen next? Without understanding, what will happen to Ukraine's security guarantees? What about the millions of children in the occupied territories? What should I tell them? What am I to tell them? What is it I should tell them? What? Whatever? Hey, all of you over there, Sia, and those tens of thousands of people buried there, they were, is that what we want? Are we ready to forgive them for this? We must at least take the first step. If this is a ceasefire, we must know that there is a security guarantee for the part of Ukraine under our control. We need it so that he will not come back.

我会用俄语问你，以便你能够及时听到。那边有数百万的孩子怎么办？如果我们仅仅安排停火，而不去了解接下来会发生什么，会怎么样？如果不了解乌克兰的安全保障会怎么样？被占领区的数百万儿童怎么办？我该对他们说些什么？我该告诉他们什么？我到底应该告诉他们什么？什么？任何事情？嘿，你们那边的人，西娅，还有成千上万埋在那里的人，他们就是我们想要的结果吗？我们准备好为此原谅他们了吗？我们至少必须迈出第一步。如果这是停火，我们必须知道我们控制下的乌克兰地区有安全保障。我们需要确保他不会再回来。

This is very important. And what do we say to the people who live in those territories? These are millions of people. Did you know that since 2014 in Donetsk, in the Crimea, this is happening in Melitopol as well? As in Berdiansk now, they are making all these kids of drafting age go and fight. And if they don't go, they will be killed. This is, do you understand what's happening? That is why a ceasefire, everything I said, what I wish for, and I believe in President Trump's power to use all of this information to come up with a way to make Ukraine strong.

这很重要。那么，我们对生活在那些地区的人们该说什么呢？这些人有上百万人。你知道吗，自2014年以来，在顿涅茨克和克里米亚，这种情况也在梅利托波尔发生？就像现在在别尔江斯克一样，他们让所有适龄入伍的孩子去打仗。如果他们不去，就会被杀。这是，你明白现在发生了什么吗？这就是为什么我希望停火，我所说的一切，我相信特朗普总统有能力利用所有这些信息，找到让乌克兰强大的办法。

And be strong. Why am I saying that? I will give you an example. President Trump will be in the same situation as I was in 2019. Precisely the same situation. I want to end the war. We want a lasting peace for Ukraine. We must do this. The ceasefire, exchange people, and then diplomatically return all territories. And we will do this through diplomacy. What will happen next with President Trump? If the ceasefire happens without security guarantees, at least for the territory we control, what does he get if he manages to make a ceasefire deal? And three months later, Putin launches a new wave of attacks.

要坚强。为什么我要这么说？我来给你一个例子。特朗普总统将会处于和我在2019年完全相同的境地。我们的目标是结束战争，为乌克兰带来持久的和平。我们必须做到这一点。停火、交换人员，之后通过外交手段收回所有领土。我们的计划是通过外交途径来实现这些目标。如果在没有安全保障的情况下达成停火协议，至少我们控制的领土没有保障，那么特朗普能得到什么好处呢？如果三个月后普京又发动新一波攻击，他将面临什么情况？

What will Trump look like? What will Ukraine look like? What will everyone look like? Putin will just do it. And why would Putin do it? Because today, he's afraid of Trump. But once Trump manages, for example, to do a ceasefire deal without serious security guarantees for Ukraine, he will give a pass to Putin. Not that he wants to. No, he does not want that. I believe in what he says. But he will give Putin an opportunity because in Putin's head, he wants me to fight with Trump. Putin's plan is to end the occupation of our territory. This is in his sick head. And I'm absolutely sure of this. That is why I told you, don't wait for Putin to want to stop the war. Pressure him so that he is forced to stop the war. That's important.

特朗普会是什么样？乌克兰会是什么样？每个人会是什么样？普京会采取行动。为什么普京会这样做？因为现在他害怕特朗普。但一旦特朗普设法达成停火协议，而没有为乌克兰提供严肃的安全保障，他就等于给了普京一个机会。不是说他想这么做。他并不想这样，我相信他说过的话。但他会给普京一个机会，因为在普京的脑海中，他希望我与特朗普对抗。普京的计划是结束对我们领土的占领。这是他疯狂的想法。我对此非常确信。这就是为什么我告诉你们，不要等着普京主动停止战争。要施压让他被迫停止战争。这很重要。

It's important to say that what you said about the children is a tragedy. War is hell. But let me say again, we must find a path to peace. There is one. What is it? There is one. Before ceasefire, strong Ukraine, strong Ukraine's position. Yes, we can speak about it with Trump. For me, we can speak about security guarantees. But a quick step, a quick step, is NATO. A partial membership, NATO. Yes, I understand. I understand. I understand Trump's feelings about NATO. I heard him. He's thinking through all of it, of course.

重要的是，要说你提到的关于孩子的问题是一场悲剧。战争就是地狱。但我再说一次，我们必须找到一条通往和平的道路，而的确有这样一条道路。是什么呢？在实现停火之前，需要一个强大的乌克兰，一个有强势立场的乌克兰。是的，我们可以和特朗普谈谈。在我看来，我们可以讨论安全保障。但一个快速步骤，就是加入北约，部分加入北约。是的，我理解。我理解特朗普对北约的感觉。我听过他的想法，他当然在考虑所有这些。

But anyway, yes, NATO is a strong security guarantee for all the people for us, part of security guarantees. The second part is the arms aid package, which we will not use. If a ceasefire works, nobody will use the weapons. For what? But it has to stay. But with all due respect to the United States and to the administration, not like before, I don't want the same situation like we had with Biden. I ask for sanctions now, please, and weapons now. And then we will see if they started again.

总之，是的，北约是我们所有人的强有力安全保障，它是安全保障的一部分。第二部分是武器援助方案，但我们不会使用这些武器。如果停火奏效，谁也不会用这些武器，为什么要用呢？但是这些武器必须留着。不过，尽管我很尊重美国及其政府，但我不想要以前和拜登时期一样的情况。我现在请求实施制裁，请求提供武器。然后我们再看他们是否会继续采取行动。

Of course, we'll be happy if you'll give us more and you will stand with us shoulder to shoulder. Of course, that is right. But but it's different when you have weapons. Putin wouldn't have been able to occupy so much territory. It was very difficult for us to push him out. But we didn't have weapons before. And that is the same situation. It can be the same situation. I'm just sharing this with you. Like I said, at the very beginning, I want to be very honest with you and with your audience. Yes, it's true.

当然，如果你愿意更多地支持我们，与我们并肩作战，我们会很高兴。这是正确的。但当你有武器时，情况就不同了。如果我们之前有武器，普京就不可能占领这么多领土。对我们来说，要把他赶出去是非常困难的。这就是同样的情况，可能再次发生。我只是想与大家分享这一点。就像我一开始说的那样，我希望对你和你的观众保持诚实。是的，这是真的。

If we do not have security guarantees, Putin will come again. To make it clear, let's describe the idea that you are speaking about. I would like to offer you other ideas too. But right now, your idea is that NATO accepts Ukraine minus the five regions of Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizia, Kerson, and Crimea. Just so you understand the situation, the invitation to NATO is legislatively issued to Ukraine. So to us, all those territories are still Ukraine. But the NATO so far can only act in the part that is under Ukrainian control. This can be negotiated. I am sure about that. Yes, this would not be a great success for us. But if we see a diplomatic way to end the war, this is one of the ways.

如果我们没有安全保障，普京还会再来。为了更清楚地表达你的想法，我想描述一下你所说的观点。我也想向你提供其他的想法。但现在，你的想法是北约接受乌克兰，但不包括卢甘斯克、顿涅茨克、扎波罗热、赫尔松和克里米亚这五个地区。为了让你理解当前局势，给乌克兰的北约邀请是通过立法发出的。因此，对我们来说，这些领土仍然是乌克兰的一部分。但北约目前只能在乌克兰实际控制的地区采取行动。这是可以通过协商解决的，我对此有信心。虽然这对于我们来说不算一个很大的成功，但如果我们看到可以通过外交手段结束战争，这就是其中一种途径。

So it is. Sorry. That is a start. Secondly, weapons, arms aid package. I'm not ready to discuss this publicly right now. It's all written down. And President Trump might have seen it or not, but we've got no secrets from him. Yes. So but mostly it depends on the willingness of the United States because some of it will come from the EU, some from the United States, of course, together. So not just from the United States. No, no, no, we need unity with this package. So the package and sanctions. Yes, sanctions. But I think it's in the interest of all the smart people to not have Russian energy on the market in general.

好的。抱歉。这是一个开始。其次，武器、军火援助方案。我现在还不准备公开讨论这个。这一切都已经写下来了。特朗普总统可能看过，也可能没看过，但我们对他没有秘密。是的，但主要还是取决于美国的意愿，因为部分援助将来自欧盟，部分来自美国，当然是共同协作的。不是仅仅来自美国。不，我们需要在这个方案上保持团结。不仅是方案，还有制裁。是的，制裁。但我认为，对于所有聪明人来说，不让俄罗斯能源进入市场是符合整体利益的。

So he has to stop it. That's all. It's fine. American oil, American gas is okay. Why not? And it's cheaper. So it will be cheaper for the whole world. The money will go to the United States. And I think he will be happy and the president and your people will be happy. But it's your decision. I'm just sharing. Yes, and cheap oil. So Putin won't have so much money for for the war. And that that's it. But this is difficult because it's a lot. You're saying to continue the sanctions on Russia to accept Ukraine and to NATO. I need to ask you some difficult questions about this. Yes, go on. I trust and respect your words today. Many people respect and love you in America. Trump respects you. Loves me. Oh, come on now. Remember last time you corrected me when I said that you love Javier Millet? You said no, no, no, no. I respect him. So let's not talk about love today. But could we talk seriously about about guaranteeing Russia's security? Okay, can I interview you a little question is what land is the war happening on and where did it start on our soil on our territory? International law was violated. The sovereignty of our country was violated. Civilians were killed.

他必须停止这样做。就是这样。没问题。美国的石油和天然气没问题，为什么不呢？而且更便宜，所以全世界的价格都会更低。钱将流向美国，我想他会很高兴，总统和你们的人民也会很高兴。但这取决于你们的决定，我只是分享我的想法。是的，还有便宜的石油。这样普京就不会有那么多资金用于战争。就是这样。但这很困难，因为涉及很多问题。你说要继续对俄罗斯实施制裁，接纳乌克兰加入北约。我需要就此问你一些困难的问题。好的，请继续说。我相信并尊重你今天的话，很多美国人尊敬和爱戴你。特朗普也很尊敬你。爱我？哦，别这么说。记得上次我说你爱哈维尔·米莱特时你纠正我说，不，不，不，我尊重他。所以今天我们不要讨论“爱”这个话题。不过我们能认真讨论一下关于保证俄罗斯安全的问题吗？好，我能采访你一下吗？问题是战争是在哪片土地上发生的，又是从哪里开始的？是在我们的领土上，我们的主权被违反了。国际法被破坏了，我们国家的平民被杀害了。

Tense of thousands of our people were taken hostage. And everyone will tell you this happened. This is what happened. When I speak with the global south, which is trying to balance the two sides because of the history, because of their roots and because of their shared economic interests with Russia in the past. And now, of course, when you talk to them, they are speaking a little bit like you. I mean, they're balancing a little bit, you know, yeah, a little bit in between, but we will work on it. Yeah. It's our first meeting during the second one. You will be more on our side. Yeah. But it's just just very convincing. We will see very charismatic. Yeah, thank you.

成千上万的我们的人被劫为人质。每个人都会告诉你，这确实发生了。这就是发生的事情。当我与全球南方对话时，因为历史、他们的根源以及他们过去与俄罗斯的共同经济利益，他们在尝试平衡双方的立场。当然，现在，当你与他们交谈时，他们的言论有点像你。他们有点在中间摇摆，但我们会努力改变这种状况。在第一次会面中，他们可能会中立一些，但在第二次会面中，他们会更倾向于支持我们。是的，这是非常有说服力的。我们会看到效果，非常有魅力。谢谢。

But when I speak with them, when I speak, it's very important. Even with their balancing attitude towards the war, they all recognize that this is a war. This is not just internal conflict. This is a full scale war. That began that Putin began and all of them, all of them, if you talk to them, they say, but then they all recognize that that it's his own big mistake, Putin's mistake, and that he's not right. That's why I said, no, no, he's not right. And you have to begin from this. If you begin at the middle between Ukraine and Russia, of course, we can speak like this. You are in the middle and say, okay, what's going on?

但是，当我与他们交流时，我意识到这点非常重要。即使他们对战争持有平衡的态度，他们都承认这是场战争。这不仅仅是内部冲突，而是一场全面战争，是普京发动的。如果你和他们交谈，他们都会说这是普京自己的大错误，他是错的。这就是为什么我说，不不，他是错的。你必须从这个认识开始。如果你从乌克兰和俄罗斯的中间立场开始讨论，当然可以这样说：你站在中间，然后问，好吧，发生了什么？

There is a fight. Where is the fight? It's not the fight like in Europe, when Napoleon is fighting against somebody in the middle of Europe. No, this is not in the middle of somewhere of the planet, not the planet. It's concretely on our land. So one, one country with one army, one person came to another. That's it. It's very clear. Again, I would like us to find a path to peace. So let us nevertheless, try to start in the middle. What other ideas do you think might you are a very intelligent person and your Russian isn't that good either? And I told you that this is only our first meeting. My English is not very good, either. Your English is very good. Thank you.

有一场战斗。战斗在哪里？这不是像在欧洲，拿破仑在欧洲中部和某人打仗。不是，这不是在星球的某个地方，不是这个星球。具体来说，这在我们自己的土地上。一个国家的军队，一个人来到了另外一个国家。就是这样，很明确。我希望我们能找到一条通向和平的道路。尽管如此，让我们尝试从中间开始。你是一个非常聪明的人，你的俄语也不是很好。我告诉过你，这只是我们的第一次会面。我的英语也不太好。你的英语很好。谢谢。

To be honest, I'm terrible at speaking in every language. Well, there are other ideas, for instance, sorry to say this. It sounds crazy, but what if both Ukraine and Russia are accepted into NATO? Putin himself spoke about Russia, maybe about NATO. What you just said is very correct. What are the guarantees for Russia? It's not like I'm even interested what happens to them. To be honest, I don't care what will happen to them in the future after the war ends. But these are our borders and we must understand what is going on there. Well, the NATO guarantees for Ukraine. Actually, this is also a security guarantee for the Russians. Frankly, I talked about this many times before. Sorry.

老实说，我在任何语言上都不擅长说话。不过，还有其他想法，比如很抱歉说这个。听起来很疯狂，但如果乌克兰和俄罗斯都被接纳进北约呢？普京自己也讨论过俄罗斯，可能是关于北约的。你刚才说的非常正确。对俄罗斯有什么保障呢？其实我并不关心他们会发生什么。说实话，我不在乎战争结束后他们的未来。但是这些是我们的边界，我们必须了解那里的情况。而北约对乌克兰的保障，实际上也是对俄罗斯的一种安全保障。坦白说，我之前多次谈到过这个问题。抱歉。

I'm speaking figuratively, but as an example, if you were a father who lost his children, a grown man, a grown man, a man, an adult, and the war has ended. And he never got justice for real. For example, somebody decides to free support. We won't give you anything you can't fight, you can't continue. So we stop when we stop without any guarantees, without any support, without financing, without okay. And nobody is held accountable, but the man lost his children. He will not get anything. None of the killers will be in prison. All the sanctions will be removed and he lost his children. And we have thousands of such people. Why do you think they will not go to Russia? We'll find a way and will not kill the Russian soldiers there or somebody there. Why wouldn't they? It's human nature. It's not about us. It's everyone. Read American writers. Always after any war.

我打个比方来说，假设你是一位失去孩子的父亲，一个成年男子，而战争已经结束。但他从来没有得到真正的正义。比如，有人决定撤掉支持，我们不会给你任何东西，你打不下去了，你不能继续。所以我们停下来，毫无保障、没有支持、没有资金、没有任何许可。而没有人对此负责，但那个男人失去了他的孩子。他不会得到任何赔偿，凶手也不会被关进监狱，所有制裁都被取消，而他已经失去了孩子。像这样的人我们有成千上万个。你为什么认为他们不会去俄罗斯？他们会找到办法，难道不会在那儿杀掉俄国士兵或其他人吗？为什么不呢？这就是人性。这不关乎我们，这是所有人都可能的反应。读读美国的作家，任何战争结束后都是如此。

If there is no justice for people, there must be punishment for the crime. It is only justice. How come my child was taken away? The war took him. This is very scary. And even whether it was my son who was fulfilling his constitutional duty or simply a missile that struck a civilian child. And if there is no justice and the killers are not punished, why wouldn't these people come back with hate? They will definitely come back. So when we talk about NATO, NATO is not only stopping Russia. Do not forget NATO is stopping us too. Because there will not be justice for everyone. We know that NATO does not have the right to solve certain issues with war. NATO is a security alliance. It is protection, not brainwashing.

如果人们得不到正义，那么就必须对罪行进行惩罚，这才是公正。为什么我的孩子被夺走了？战争带走了他。这太可怕了。无论是因为我的孩子履行了宪法职责，还是因为一枚导弹击中了一个平民孩子。如果没有正义，凶手得不到惩罚，为什么这些人不会带着仇恨回来呢？他们一定会回来的。所以当我们谈论北约时，北约不仅是为了阻止俄罗斯。不要忘记，北约也在约束我们。因为并不是每个人都能得到公正。我们知道北约没有权利通过战争解决某些问题。北约是一个安全联盟，是保护，而不是洗脑。

What Putin claims that this is offensive is not true. NATO is a defensive alliance, a security alliance, and it is security for Russia. But unfortunately, there are many options for peace. That don't involve NATO inviting Ukraine as a member. Can you imagine security guarantees without NATO membership? For example, if America simply leaves NATO, I believe there is a high likelihood that Donald Trump would do such a thing. I think it's very bad for NATO. That's the end. That is the death of NATO. It is a pity, because I think that it's a very good alliance. Maybe not everything is good there from the bureaucracy or money, etc. But totally countries who are in NATO, they don't fight. There is no war on the land of any of these NATO countries.

普京声称这是冒犯性的，这不是真的。北约是一个防御性的联盟，一个安全联盟，对俄罗斯也是一种安全保障。但不幸的是，还有很多实现和平的选项，这并不涉及北约邀请乌克兰成为成员国。你能想象没有北约成员身份的安全保障吗？例如，如果美国退出北约，我相信唐纳德·特朗普可能会做这样的事情。我认为这对北约非常不利，那将是北约的终结。这很可惜，因为我认为这是一个非常好的联盟。也许在管理或者资金等方面有些问题，但整体上，加入北约的国家之间不会发生战争。在这些北约国家的土地上没有战争。

I think that is the answer. It works or not. It works politically or militarily. I don't know, but it works. So without Trump, without the United States of America, there will not be NATO. That is the first. So, and you say, can we imagine that? That what? That there could be security guarantee without? No, we don't need guarantees without the United States. That's it, because the United States is a very strong, powerful country. The United States puts the point, of course, Putin said that it's just the Soviet Union, where, by the way, Ukraine was the second strong republic militarily.

我认为这就是答案。无论在政治上还是军事上，它是否有效，我不确定，但它有效。所以如果没有特朗普，没有美国，就不会有北约。这是首先要明白的。那么你会问，我们能想象没有美国的安全保障吗？不，我们不需要没有美国的保障。因为美国是一个非常强大、有影响力的国家。当然，普京会说那只不过是苏联，而当时乌克兰是仅次于俄罗斯的第二军事强国。

Yes, by the way, but he of course always forgets about it. But during the World War II, without help from the United States, support of your troops, support of your industry, industrially, militarily, without your money, without your people, Hitler could win. So the United States helped a lot. Of course, Europe, USSR, and of course, everybody thought, everybody did a lot. But without the United States, it couldn't be such. I don't use the war success, because I think that there is no war, which ends successfully, because this is a war, seven figure losses, heavy losses in World War II, millions of people. And that's why, without the United States, security guarantees are not possible.

当然，不过他总是会忘记这点。不过在第二次世界大战期间，如果没有美国的帮助，没有美军的支持，没有美国工业和军事上的支援，如果没有美国的钱和人民，希特勒可能会赢。因此，美国给予了极大的帮助。当然，欧洲、苏联以及其他国家也付出了很多努力。但如果没有美国，这一切都不可能如此。我不称其为战争的成功，因为我认为没有战争是成功结束的，因为战争意味着巨大的损失，二战中有数百万人伤亡。这就是为什么没有美国的安全保障是不可能的。

I mean, these security guarantees, which can prevent Russian aggression. Of course, we have security guarantees by laterally, with some countries financing support of our internal military and defending and humanitarian issues and demining, which is very important and helping our children in the school networks. By the way, this is a very sensitive point. How many, how many bomb shelters? How many bomb shelters we built with the partners for the children? And it's a pity that they are underground. But can you imagine their eyes? When they came after COVID, you understand what does it mean COVID, but they had COVID and the war. And together, they didn't see each other for so many years. And when they saw each other, even underground, they were very happy and smiling. So we have such security guarantees. But it's not enough to prevent.

我的意思是，这些安全保障可以防止俄罗斯的侵略。当然，我们通过双边的方式得到了安全保障，一些国家在经济上支持我们处理国内的军事防务、人道主义问题以及排雷，这些都非常重要，同时也帮助我们的孩子在学校网络中学习。顺便说一下，这是一个非常敏感的点。我们为孩子们和合作伙伴一起建造了多少防空洞？可惜它们都在地下。但你能想象他们的眼神吗？在经历了新冠疫情后，你知道新冠意味着什么，但他们经历了新冠和战争，很多年没见面。当他们即便在地下见到彼此时，仍然非常开心，面带微笑。所以我们有这样的安全保障。但这还不足以阻止侵略。

Yes, preventive measures also work to prevent the aggression of Putin. No, to think this your English is better than my Russian. This is so this is wonderful. I'm not sure. I'm just giving you compliments. Thank you. No, no, thank you. That kind of thing to a president. Thanks so much. Okay. Once again, come on, without NATO guarantees, I have a dream that let's say on January 25, or sometime at the end of January this year, you will sit down with Donald Trump, with Vladimir Putin, and together negotiate a ceasefire with strict security guarantees. And an agreement will be signed. What will this look like without NATO?

是的，预防措施也可以有效防止普京的侵略。至于理解这件事，你的英语比我的俄语更好。这样很好，我不确定。我只是给你一些赞美，谢谢。不，那种事情对一个总统说很感谢。好的，再一次，如果没有北约的保证，我有一个梦想，比如说今年1月25日，或者在1月底的时候，你会和唐纳德·特朗普、弗拉基米尔·普京坐下来，一起谈判一项具有严格安全保证的停火协议，并签署一份协议。如果没有北约，这将是什么样子呢？

I will make it clear. And so first of all, I think January 25 or some other day, well, you just call it January 25. And I don't mind. It's my birthday. And we sit down. First of all, with Trump, we agree with him on how we can stop the war, stop Putin. It is important for us to sit down with him. Secondly, it is very important for us that Europe, which is very important for us because we are part of Europe. And not only geographically, geopolitically, but also in the European Union, where we will be for us. It is very important that Europe also has a voice. It's the second thing. It won't be long because Europe will be looking at us and will be looking at Trump.

我会解释清楚。首先，我认为一切可以从1月25日开始，或者是其他一天，不妨就称之为1月25日。我对此无所谓，因为那是我的生日。我们坐下来，首先与特朗普讨论如何停止战争、阻止普京。对我们来说，与他坐下来讨论是很重要的。其次，对我们来说，欧洲也非常重要，因为我们是欧洲的一部分。不仅在地理和地缘政治上是这样，未来我们还将成为欧盟的一员。重要的是，欧洲同样需要有发言权。这是第二个方面。但这不会花太长时间，因为欧洲会关注我们，也会关注特朗普。

And by the way, I now see that when I talk about something with Donald Trump, whether we meet in person or we just have a call, all the European leaders always ask, how was it? This shows the influence of Donald Trump. And this has never happened before. With an American president, I tell you from my experience, this also gives you confidence, you know, that he can stop this war. That is why we in Trump come first and Europe will support Ukraine's position because they understand that Ukraine has every right to have its voice heard in this because we are at war.

顺便说一下，我现在发现，每当我和唐纳德·特朗普谈论某件事时，无论是见面还是通电话，所有欧洲领导人总是会问，效果怎么样？这显示了唐纳德·特朗普的影响力。而这种情况在以往的美国总统中从未发生过，我是凭经验告诉你们的。这也给了你一种信心，你知道，他可以阻止这场战争。这就是为什么我们首先支持特朗普，而欧洲将支持乌克兰的立场，因为他们明白乌克兰有权在这场战争中让自己的声音被听到。

Trump and I will come to an agreement. And then if, and I am sure that he can offer strong security guarantees together with Europe, and then we can talk to the Russians. That's right. Not just three of us sitting down at once. And you still talk to me like that. Do you know how as if Putin wants to sit down and talk, but Ukraine does not? This is not true. I think that yes, he is in fact ready to talk. Did you talk to him on the phone or what? How do you normally talk to him? I don't know normally by the sea. The same is with you. He invites you to the sea with me, just the three of us. No, no, one of us may drown. Who are you good at swimming? Yes, I'm a good swimmer. You're a good swimmer. Well, and I would like to add that if you have any contact with them, I just want to hear what happens then.

特朗普和我会达成协议。如果他能够和欧洲一起提供强有力的安全保障，然后我们就可以和俄罗斯对话了。是的，不只是我们三个人同时坐下来谈。而且你还那样和我说话。你知道吗，好像普京想坐下来谈，而乌克兰不愿意？这不是真的。我认为他确实准备好谈了。你有没有跟他通过电话或者其他方式交流？通常你们是怎么沟通的？我不太清楚，通常是在海边。和你一样情况。他邀请你和我一起去海边，但只有我们三个人。不，可能有人会溺水。你游泳好吗？是的，我游泳不错。哦，你游泳很好。那我想补充一点，如果你和他们有任何接触，我只想知道接下来会发生什么。

I have never talked to Vladimir Putin, but I have a feeling that he is ready because Donald Trump is ready. I hope you are ready. And this is not just a feeling, but a dream. I have a dream here that the three of you will get together in a room and make peace. And I want to understand what it looks like, what security guarantees look like that would satisfy Ukraine or satisfy Russia. Ukraine needs security guarantees first and foremost. We are in danger. That is why they are called so. This is no joke to me. Let's take a few steps back. Interesting. Why are security guarantees? A strong position of Ukraine, strong weapons and so on. So important.

我从未与弗拉基米尔·普京交谈过，但我感觉他已经准备好了，因为唐纳德·特朗普已经准备好了。我希望你也准备好了。这不仅仅是一种感觉，而是一个梦想。我在这里有一个梦想，你们三个人会在一个房间里坐下来实现和平。我想了解，这样的和平会是什么样子，那种能令乌克兰或俄罗斯满意的安全保障是什么样的。乌克兰首先需要安全保障。我们处于危险之中，这就是它们被称为保障的原因。对我来说，这不是开玩笑。让我们回顾一下。为什么安全保障如此重要？乌克兰的强大地位、强大武器等等，这些为什么如此关键。

I will give you a little history lesson. Although I think you have prepared yourself and know everything perfectly. Well, you can correct me on that. Yes, Ukraine had security guarantees. The Budapest memorandum nuclear weapons are the security guarantees that Ukraine had Ukraine had nuclear weapons. I do not want to characterize it as good or bad. Today, the fact that we do not have them is bad. Why? Because this is war. Today, we are at war because you unleashed we because you have unleashed the hands of a nuclear power. A nuclear power is fighting against us against Ukraine and doing what it wants. By the way, even you are now talking about ceasefire, just a ceasefire.

我来给你上一堂历史课。虽然我认为你可能已经做好了准备，并且知道一切。嗯，你可以纠正我。是的，乌克兰曾经有安全保障。布达佩斯备忘录中的核武器是乌克兰拥有的安全保障。乌克兰曾经有核武器。我不想评价这件事情的好坏。今天，我们没有这些武器的事实是不好的。为什么？因为现在是战争。我们现在处于战争中，因为你放任了一个核大国。一个核大国正在攻击我们，对乌克兰为所欲为。顺便说一下，现在就连你们也在谈论停火，只是一个停火。

Maybe give flowers to Putin. Maybe to say, thank you so much for these years. That was a great part of my life. No, we are not just ready for this. Why? The Budapest memorandum nuclear weapons. This is what we had Ukraine used them for protection. This does not mean that someone attacked us. That doesn't mean that we would have used it. We had that opportunity. These were our security guarantees. Why am I talking about this in detail? Because if you take the Budapest memorandum, by the way, I discussed this with President Trump. We have not finished this conversation yet. We will continue it regarding the Budapest memorandum. The Budapest memorandum included security guarantees for Ukraine at first three three.

也许可以给普京送些花，可能为了感谢他，这些年真的很棒。这是我生命中一个美好的部分。但是我们还没有准备好这样做。为什么呢？因为布达佩斯备忘录和核武器。当时我们乌克兰用它们来保护自己。这并不意味着有人攻击了我们，也不意味着我们会使用它。我们有这样的机会。这些曾是我们的安全保障。我详细谈论这个话题是因为布达佩斯备忘录，我顺便提一下，我曾与特朗普总统讨论过，我们的对话还没有结束，还将继续讨论布达佩斯备忘录。布达佩斯备忘录最初是为乌克兰提供安全保障的。

The most important security guarantors for Ukraine three strategic friends and partners of Ukraine. This was in agreement. United States of America, Russia, Britain, France and China joined. There were five states that these are not even security guarantees. We now understand that this is not a guarantee of security because on the one hand, these are security guarantees. But there was an English word, as far as I understand, assurance. It is translated as assurance, assurance, right? And in Russian, it will be, and what, assurance? That is, give up nuclear weapons because you were under pressure of the US and Russia for Ukraine to give them up. These two powers were exerting pressure. These two states negotiated to ensure that Ukraine does not have nuclear weapons. Ukraine agreed. These, these are the largest states. This is the nuclear five that does not not even provide security guarantees.

乌克兰最重要的安全担保是乌克兰的三个战略朋友和伙伴，这一点已经达成共识。美国、俄罗斯、英国、法国和中国都参与了。有五个国家，但这些根本不是安全保证。我们现在明白这并不是安全保障，因为从某种意义上说，这些是安全保证。但有一个英文单词，据我理解，是"assurance"，翻译过来是"保证"，对吗？在俄语中也是这样吗？意思是为了让乌克兰在美国和俄罗斯的压力下放弃核武器。这两个大国施加了压力，这两个国家进行了谈判以确保乌克兰没有核武器。乌克兰同意了。这些，都是最大的国家。这是核五国，但他们甚至不提供安全保障。

Now we just need to find these people and we just need to put in jail. All of those who frankly invented all this. So confidence, so confidence, assurance. Assurance that Ukraine will be territorially integral with its sovereignty. It was a piece of paper, if you are curious, by the way, that after occupying part of our Donbas and Crimea, Ukraine sent diplomats three times. I don't think I remember three times within a few years. We sent letters to all security guarantors, to all members of the Budapest memorandum. What did they send? That what was written on the piece of paper? Consultations. Ukraine holds consultations if its territorial integrity is violated. And everyone should be in consultation. Everyone must come. Everyone must meet urgently. USA, Britain, Russia, France, China. Did anyone come? You ask? No. Did anyone reply to these letters, official letters? They are all recorded by diplomats. Did anyone conduct consultations? No. And why not? They didn't give a fuck. This is understandable in Russian, right? That as Russia didn't give a damn, neither did all the other security guarantors of the Budapest memorandum. None of them gave a damn about this country, these people, these security guarantees, etc. We take a break.

现在我们只需要找到这些人，并把他们关进监狱。所有那些坦白来讲发明了这一切的人。要有信心，信心和保证。保证乌克兰在主权上的领土完整。顺便说一下，如果你感兴趣的话，这曾经是一张纸。在占领了我们顿巴斯和克里米亚的一部分后，乌克兰三次派遣外交官。我觉得我不记得在几年内有三次。我们给所有安全担保国寄了信，给布达佩斯备忘录的所有成员。那他们寄了什么？那张纸上写了什么？是协商。乌克兰在其领土完整被侵犯时举行协商。所有人都应该参与协商。所有人必须立即会面。美国、英国、俄罗斯、法国、中国。有人来吗？你问？没有。有人回复这些正式信件吗？所有信件都由外交官记录了。有人进行协商了吗？没有。为什么没有？因为他们根本不在乎。用俄语理解这一点没问题，对吧？俄罗斯不在乎，而布达佩斯备忘录的所有其他安全担保国也不在乎。没有一个人关心这个国家、这些人民、这些安全保障，等等。我们休息一下。

This will be a Budapest memorandum. The last time with me, imagine how many years it was with me in February 2022. In February 2022, the war began. A full-scale war. Letters for consultations have been sent. No one answers. Next, we are taking a break from the Budapest memorandum. The question is simple about Budapest. Can we trust this? No. Whichever country out of these five sat at the negotiating table, just a piece of paper. Believe me, we will save you. No. Another. This is a train. This is a train with paper with security guarantees, which Ukraine has been writing for many years. The second car on this train is the Minsk agreements, the Normandy format and the Minsk agreements, where it was written, where the signatories were. The United States of America was no longer there. I understand that Obama was here at the time. And as far as I know, I think they were simply not interested in what happened to Ukraine and where it was in general, where it was located, well, somewhere there, part of something, people, well, people and let it be, let it be with these people. The United States simply did not participate in the Minsk agreements. There are no claims to the U.S. because they were not guarantors. Where is the claim?

这将是一个布达佩斯备忘录。最后一次和我在一起，想象一下，2022年2月有多少年了。2022年2月，战争爆发了，一场全面战争。咨询的信件已经发出，但没有人回复。接下来，我们暂时中止布达佩斯备忘录。关于布达佩斯的问题很简单，我们能信任这个吗？不能。从这五个国家中，无论哪个国家坐在谈判桌旁，这只是一张纸而已。相信我，我们会保护你。没有。另一个。这是一列火车，这列火车上带有乌克兰多年来书写的安全保障文件。火车的第二节车厢是明斯克协议、诺曼底模式和明斯克协议，上面写着签署国。美国当时已经不在了。我知道当时奥巴马在任。而且据我所知，我认为他们根本不关心乌克兰发生了什么，以及乌克兰究竟在哪里，只是认为它在哪里，成为某个地方的一部分，有些人，只是让这些人存在。美国根本没有参与明斯克协议。对美国没有任何指责，因为他们不是担保国。那么指控在哪里呢？

A step back. 2008, Bucharest, everyone has already learned from the Budapest memorandum. Bucharest, 2008, Bucharest, Mr. Bush, president of the United States, Republican says that Ukraine should be in NATO. This is the voice of Republicans. Check it out. Ukraine should be in NATO. Everybody is looking at the U.S. always, all in favor, who is against Merkel. So she opposes and she forced everyone not to give Ukraine an invitation to join NATO because that would be a step. Seriously, Republicans were in favor. The U.S. was in favor because Republicans and Bush were not afraid of anyone. They were not afraid of anyone and they knew that Ukraine rightly wanted to join NATO. She chooses so. And what is the question? Well, people made their choice. Well, and the Russians will not look that way. That was not the case then. Why? Because the Russians were different.

退一步讲。2008年，在布加勒斯特，大家已经从《布达佩斯备忘录》中吸取了教训。布加勒斯特，2008年，美国总统布什，作为共和党人，认为乌克兰应该加入北约。这是共和党的声音，可以查一查。乌克兰应该加入北约。大家都在看着美国，几乎全部赞成，反对的是默克尔。于是她反对并迫使大家不向乌克兰发出加入北约的邀请，因为这将是一个步骤。实际上，共和党是赞成的，美国是赞成的，因为共和党和布什无所畏惧。他们不惧怕任何人，并且知道乌克兰理应希望加入北约。但她做出了这样的选择。问题是什么？人们做出了他们的选择。不过，俄罗斯人不会以那种方式看待问题。那时候不是这样的。为什么？因为当时的俄罗斯是不同的。

Next, Minsk. We didn't succeed. After the Minsk agreements, as I told you, hundreds of meetings were held. I have had hundreds of meetings since 2019. We could not think about a ceasefire. A ceasefire is our offer. This is not somebody's suggestion. This is mine. I would like. I wanted to, in Ukraine, society was divided. Not everyone wanted to. Half did not want to. Half were against. Half were in favor. Some of them shouted. Do not believe it. Some of them shouted. Believe it. I am the president of Ukraine. I was given a mandate of trust by 70% of the population to take appropriate steps and I made them. This is not a joke. We'll just sit the three of us. I am simply telling you what is. This is how can I tell you? These meetings must be serious and prepared. And prepared with those who want peace. Ukraine wants peace. US wants peace. We have to sit down with Trump and that is 100%. First and foremost, number one. Moreover, he told me on the phone that he is waiting for us to meet and there will be an official visit and my visit would be the first or one of the first to him. And for him, this topic is very important. I know that he has his own matters, American issues. I understand. I heard his election program, but regarding international affairs, I think our issue is one of the most pressing issues for President Trump. Therefore, I believe very much I trust his words and I hope we will meet again. We need to prepare. We have many plans to build on and they exist and they are supported by many countries, but we need his vision. He needs to look at all these details, but his vision, please, because he can stop Putin because Putin is afraid of him. That's a fact. But Trump is a president of a democratic country and he does not come for life. He is not Putin. He will not come for 25 years. He will come for his term. Please tell me.

接下来是明斯克。我们没有成功。在明斯克协议之后，如我所说，举行了数百次会议。从2019年开始，我参与了数百次会谈。我们无法考虑停火。停火是我们的提议。这不是别人的建议，而是我的。我希望在乌克兰，社会是分裂的，并不是每个人都想要。半数不想要，另一半则反对，另一半支持。有些人大声喊叫："不要相信它"。有些人大声喊叫："相信它"。我作为乌克兰总统，得到70%民众的信任授权来采取适当措施，并且我这样做了。这不是开玩笑。我们只需要三个人坐下来。我只是告诉你事实。我要怎么告诉你呢？这些会议必须认真且充分准备，并且和想要和平的人一起准备。乌克兰想要和平，美国也想要和平。我们必须和特朗普坐下来，这是百分之一百的事情，首先而且最重要的是，他在电话中告诉我，他期待我们的会面，将会有一次正式访问，而我的访问将是他的首次访问之一。对他来说，这个话题非常重要。我知道他有自己的事务，美国的事务。我理解。我听过他的竞选纲领，不过在国际事务上，我认为我们的议题是特朗普总统面临的最紧迫问题之一。所以，我非常相信他的承诺，希望我们会再次见面。我们需要准备，我们有很多计划可以推进，这些计划存在并得到许多国家的支持，但我们需要他的远见。他需要看着所有的细节，但请他的远见，因为他可以阻止普京，因为普京怕他。这是事实。但特朗普是一位民主国家的总统，他不会终身在位。他不是普京，他不会执政25年。他会在他的任期内做事。请告诉我。

Well, for example, he came for four years and for the fifth year, Putin came with a war. Will it make Trump feel better that there was no war during his time and that Ukraine was destroyed after him? Why destroyed? Putin is whoever, a killer, whoever, but not a fool. He will be prepared. He knows all mistakes. He understands how we defeated his army after the invasion began. He realized that this was not a Soviet war and that this would not happen with us. He will prepare. He will let everything into arms production. He will have lots of weapons and there will be a very large army. And you think that after such humiliation, four years without a war, he did not finish us. He will return and fight only against Ukraine. He will destroy everything around. And if you say there is a risk that Trump, President Trump will withdraw from NATO, for example, this is a decision of the United States. I'm simply saying that if it does, Putin will destroy Europe. Calculate the size of army in Europe.

好的，比如说，他在位四年，到第五年，普京发动了战争。这会让特朗普感到好过吗，因为他任期时没有战争，而乌克兰在他之后被摧毁？为什么被摧毁？普京是谁都好，是杀手也好，但不是傻子。他会做好准备。他知道所有的错误。他明白我们是如何在入侵开始后打败他的军队的。他意识到这不是一场苏联式的战争，并且这不会发生在我们身上。他会准备好一切。他会将所有资源投入武器生产。他会有大量的武器和一支非常庞大的军队。你认为经历这样的屈辱后，在没有战争的四年里，他没有完成对我们的摧毁。他会回来，并且只对抗乌克兰。他会摧毁周围的一切。假如你说有风险，比如特朗普总统会退出北约，这是美国的决定。我只是说，如果真发生，普京将摧毁欧洲。计算一下欧洲的军队规模。

It's just that I say it for a reason to the calculation. Why did Hitler conquer all of Europe then? Almost. Just count. Remember his armies of millions. Calculate what Europe has. What are the largest armies? We have the largest army. The Ukrainian army is the largest in Europe. The second place after us is four times smaller than us. France. Yes. 200,000. I think the French have about 200,000. We have 980. So this powerful coalition of European nations that will not be enough. Yes, it's not going to be enough. But you're a smart man. There's a lot of ideas. Partnerships, with global South India, Middle East Saudi Arabia, economic scale partnerships, political partnerships. It all protects you.

这只是因为计算的原因我才这么说。那为什么希特勒能征服几乎整个欧洲呢？你可以算一下，记住他有数百万的军队。算算欧洲有哪些力量最强大的军队？我们有欧洲最大的军队。乌克兰的军队是欧洲最大的。第二名比我们小四倍。是法国。嗯，对，20万。我想法国人大约有20万。而我们有98万。所以这个强大的欧洲联盟还是不够。是的，这还是不够。但你是一个聪明的人，有很多想法。与全球南方的印度、中东的沙特阿拉伯进行经济规模和政治合作，都会保护你。

First of all, look at one example. North Korea. Just look at this example. 12,000 has arrived. Today, 3,800 killed or wounded. They can bring more. 30, 40,000. Or maybe 500. They can bring many people. Why? Because they have order, autocracy and everything. Can Europe bring people together? No. Will Europe be able to build an army consisting of two to three million people? No, Europe will not want to do this. And for what? We definitely don't want a world war with you. There is no such purpose. There is no such purpose as gathering everyone. We do not want any war. We want to stop the Russians and they invite North Korean soldiers invited. Their faces are burned. They themselves burn their faces. Those who cannot escape injured or killed. There is a video. Everything I'm telling you, there is evidence of this. So that they are not recognizable, right? It means what does it mean? It's out of values which share Europe. Europe counts. It means that those guys don't count. It's count. Yes. They don't count the number of people. That is the answer. Can they move more? Yes. Can they move dozens of thousands? Yes, because we see what they have.

首先，看一个例子，朝鲜。看看这个例子。12000人已经到达。今天，3800人被杀或受伤。他们可以带来更多，比如3万、4万人，甚至可能500人。他们可以带来很多人。为什么？因为他们有命令、独裁和一切。欧洲能把人聚集在一起吗？不能。欧洲能建两三百万人的军队吗？不能，欧洲不想这么做。而且为了什么？我们绝对不想和你爆发世界大战。没有这样的目的。没有聚集所有人的目的。我们不想要任何战争。我们想阻止俄罗斯人，他们邀请了朝鲜士兵。他们的脸被烧伤了，他们自己烧伤自己的脸。那些不能逃跑的人会受伤或被杀。这里有一个视频。我告诉你的所有事情都有证据。所以为了不被认出来，对吗？这意味着什么？这是欧洲共享价值观外的。欧洲在乎这意味着那些人不重要。他们不计算人数。这就是答案。他们能动员更多吗？能。他们能动员数万人吗？能，因为我们看到了他们所拥有的。

Last year, for example, Europe gave us one million artillery rounds. We produced a lot ourselves, but they gave us initiative. It was initiative. One million artillery rounds and of 155 and etc. We produced more, but North Korea gave Putin 3.7. Just gave him. So he also has a deficit for today. It means he needs what he needs time. But the number of soldiers and the number of artillery rounds is not everything. As you have said, let's say Donald Trump guarantees security for four years. You can form partnerships with India, with Saudi Arabia, that enforce punishment, the stick on oil prices, for example, if any aggressive action is taken. Actually, even I've met a lot of incredible Ukrainian tech people, IT people. You can build great companies that form partnerships with the United States, that form partnerships with China.

去年，举个例子，欧洲给了我们一百万发炮弹。我们自己生产了很多，但他们给了我们主动权。这是一种主动权。一百万发炮弹，包括155毫米的等等。我们自己生产了更多，但朝鲜却给了普京3.7。就是白给他的。所以他今天也有赤字。这意味着他需要时间。但士兵数量和炮弹数量不是一切。正如你所说，比如说，唐纳德·特朗普可以保证四年的安全。你可以和印度、沙特阿拉伯建立伙伴关系，在油价方面施加惩罚措施，例如，如果采取任何侵略行动。实际上，我也遇到了很多令人惊叹的乌克兰技术人员和IT人员。你可以建立伟大的公司，与美国建立伙伴关系，与中国建立伙伴关系。

That is a big leverage against aggression of however many million artillery rounds. That sheet of paper, you don't need a sheet of paper of protection. When you speak in English, you don't even need answers because when you now were talking, you already answered on all the questions. The first one is that during this time, you need just cooperation, a lot of money for this military industry. In Ukraine or in Europe, with India, Saudi Arabia, Saudi and the United States, you need a lot of money. So the question is where you will get it. So my answer was to Trump. I said, this is one of the security guarantees. Take 300 billion of frozen Russian assets. We will take it.

这是一种对抗数百万炮弹侵略的强大杠杆。那张纸，并不需要作为保护。当你说英语时，你甚至不需要答案，因为当你现在谈话时，你已经回答了所有问题。首先，在这个时期，你只需要合作，需要大量的钱投入军事工业。在乌克兰或欧洲，与印度、沙特阿拉伯和美国，你需要很多钱。那么问题是你从哪里得到这些钱。所以我的回答是对特朗普说的。我说，这是一种安全保障。拿走冻结的3000亿美元俄罗斯资产。我们会把它拿来。

Take money, what we need for our interior production. And we will buy all the weapons from the United States. We don't need gifts from the United States. It will be very good for your industry. For the United States, we will put money there, Russian money. Not Ukrainian, not European, Russian money, Russian assets. They have to pay for this. We will put it and we will make it. This is one of security guarantees.

拿我们内需生产所需的钱，我们将从美国购买所有武器。我们不需要美国的赠予。这对你们的工业将非常有利。对于美国来说，我们会把钱投入到那里，使用俄罗斯的资金，不是乌克兰的，也不是欧洲的，而是俄罗斯的钱和资产。他们必须为此支付。这将成为安全保障之一。

Yes, of course, because this is a military guarantee. Yes. But then the second you said that energy price and a lot of sanctions on products and the Russian shadow fleet and etc. That is the second answer. We spoke about before, yes, put more sanctions on them. More sanctions. It's okay. Not, but not to take off sanctions. That's okay with you. It's not going to be okay with the president of Russia. Yes, but I'm not thinking how it will be very good for him. He's still a killer. I understand.

当然可以，因为这是一个军事保障。是的。但接下来你提到能源价格、对产品的制裁、俄罗斯的影子舰队等等。这是第二个答案。我们之前说过，没错，对他们实施更多制裁。更多的制裁没关系，但不能解除制裁。你对此没问题。但这对俄罗斯总统来说就不好了。是的，不过我没有想过这对他会有什么好处。他仍然是一个杀人犯。我理解。

But unfortunately, the reality is that a compromise is needed in order to reach and agree. So in your understanding, the fact that he is no injailed after all the murders, he is not in jail, assuming all the murders. And no one in the world is able to put him in his place, send him to prison. Do you think this is a small compromise? This is not a small compromise. And to forgive him will not be a small compromise. To forgive. No one will forgive. This is absolutely impossible to forgive him. We cannot get into the head and soul of a person who lost their family. Nobody never will accept this. Absolutely impossible. I don't know.

不幸的是，现实情况是，为了达成和解，需要做出妥协。在你看来，考虑到他在犯下所有谋杀罪后并没有入狱，而且没有人能让他受到应有的惩罚，将他送进监狱。你认为这只是一个小小的妥协吗？这绝不是一个小妥协。原谅他绝不是一个小妥协。没有人会原谅。这是绝对无法原谅的。我们无法理解那些失去家人的人的感受。没有人会接受这一点。绝对不可能。我不知道。

Do you have children? No, not yet. But I would like to. Yes. God bless. And this is the most important thing in life. And they simply took away the most precious thing from you. Will you ask? Who ruined your life before going to rip their head off? I'm just curious. They took your child away. Are you going to ask who did this? And they will answer that that dude did this. You will say, Oh, well, then there are no questions. No. No, no, you will go fucking hell and bite their head off. And it will be fair.

你有孩子吗？还没有，但我想有。是的，愿上帝保佑。这是人生中最重要的事情。而他们竟然夺走了你最珍贵的东西。你会问是谁在毁你的生活，然后去找他们算账吗？我只是好奇。他们把你的孩子夺走了。你会问是谁干的吗？他们会回答是那个人干的。你会说，哦，那就没有问题了？不，不，不，你会非常愤怒，然后找他们算账，这才是公正的。

Yeah. Can murderers be forgiven? That's why you make security guarantees. What I told you for those who are here and what we control and what will not happen and that those who lost, we will, we will, we will never forget and a matter of time. But when you gave us NATO, I just said, this means that after a while, everything I said about NATO, after a while, Ukraine will not go against Russia. And Russia will not go against Ukraine because you are in NATO. I am just saying is not that a compromise. So NATO is a compromise. This is not just a security guarantee.

好的。杀人犯可以被原谅吗？这就是为什么你需要提供安全保障。我告诉过你，对于那些在我们掌控下的人，那些不会发生的事情，以及对于那些失去的人，我们永远不会忘记，只是时间的问题。但是当你给了我们北约，我只是说，这意味着过一段时间后，我所说的关于北约的一切，过一段时间，乌克兰将不会针对俄罗斯，俄罗斯也不会针对乌克兰，因为你在北约。我只是说这不是妥协。所以，北约就是一个妥协。这不仅仅是一个安全保障。

In my opinion, look, when rockets were attacking Israel and Israel is not in NATO, NATO countries, aircrafts were deployed. Air defense, the air defense worked operated by different Middle Eastern countries. These are also security guarantees. And by the way, Israel has nuclear weapons. So why do they need NATO when in fact they have more than NATO has, the American, British and French aviation stepped in. There was ADA. I don't remember from from Jordan. Listen, thousands of missiles were shut down that way. This is, this is what is this? So it's a guarantee of safety. It's just that it's not called NATO. Is some uncle Vova irritated by the word NATO? There's a problem with the word. And I think he's simply irritated by people who are alive and living here. If you believe this, it will be very difficult to negotiate. If you think that the president of a country is completely crazy, it is really hard to come to an agreement with him.

在我看来，当火箭攻击以色列时，虽然以色列不属于北约，但北约国家的飞机也参与了防御。中东一些国家也操作了空中防御系统，这些其实也是一种安全保障。顺便提一下，以色列拥有核武器，所以他们其实不需要北约，因为他们拥有的远超过北约提供的。美国、英国和法国的航空力量介入了。我记不太清了，好像还有来自约旦的支援。数千枚导弹被这种方式拦截。这难道不是一种安全保障吗？只不过它没有挂上北约的名号而已。是不是有人因为“北约”这个词感到不爽？这个词似乎成了问题的根源。我认为他只不过是对那些活着的、生活在这里的人感到不满。如果你相信这一点，那会让谈判变得非常困难。如果你认为一个国家的总统完全失去了理智，那么真的很难与他达成协议。

You have to look at him as a serious person who loves his country and loves the people in his country. And he conducts, yes, destructive military actions. Who are you talking about now? Who loves his country? Putin. Do you think he doesn't love his country? No. What is his country? He happened to consider Ukraine his country. What is his country? Explain it. Tomorrow he will say that it's America. No pity for the chickens. Do they look like Russians? Do they speak Russian? Of course. Of course they learn in schools like anywhere there's been Russification. Who are the chickens? A different people. Another faith. Other people. Another language. A million. Eliminated. And eliminated. How? How did he kill them? With love? I know, fuck, by hugging in Ukrainian as we as we say, strangling by hugging. I love you so, so much. I love you so much that I want to kill you. That's his love. And that's not love.

你必须把他看作一个严肃的人，他爱他的国家，爱他国家的人民。而他确实进行着破坏性的军事行动。你现在在说谁？谁爱他的国家？普京。你认为他不爱他的国家吗？不。他的国家是哪里？他竟然把乌克兰视为他的国家。他的国家是哪里？解释一下。明天他会说是美国。毫无怜悯之情，那些鸡们。他们看起来像俄罗斯人吗？他们讲俄语吗？当然。当然，他们在学校学习，就像任何地方的俄罗斯化一样。鸡是谁？不同的民族。不同的信仰。不同的人。不同的语言。上百万的人。被消灭。被消灭。怎么？他是怎么杀死他们的？用爱杀死他们吗？我知道，该死，就像我们在乌克兰说的那样，用拥抱勒死。我如此爱你。我如此爱你，以至于想杀死你。那就是他的“爱”。而那不是爱。

You're mistaken. He does not love his people. He loves his inner circle. It's only a small part of the people. He doesn't love them. Why I'll explain. You cannot send your people to another land. To die knowing that they will die. Children. My daughter. My daughter. She is 20 years old. For me, this is a child. She is already an adult, of course. But she is a child. The boys, the boys he sends, are 18 years old. 18 years old. They are children. He sends them. It's not that fascists came to his land and he needs to defend it. He came to ours and he sent them. Chechnya. He sent them. Syria. He sent them. Africa. He sent them. Georgia. He sent them. Moldova. Transnistria. That was before him. Fine. We can leave that aside. He has enough sins of his own.

你错了。他并不爱他的人民。他爱的是他的小圈子。那只是人民中的一小部分。他并不爱他们。我来解释为什么。你不能把你的人送到另一个地方，让他们去送死，还明知道他们会死。孩子们。我的女儿。我的女儿。她只有20岁。在我眼中，她还是个孩子。当然，她已经是个成年人了。但她仍是个孩子。那些男孩，他派出的男孩，才18岁。18岁，他们还是孩子。他把他们派出去。这不是因为有法西斯分子侵入了他的土地需要保卫。他来到了我们的土地，把他们派来了。车臣，他派去了。叙利亚，他派去了。非洲，他派去了。格鲁吉亚，他派去了。摩尔多瓦，德涅斯特河沿岸。那是在他之前发生的。好吧，那可以放在一边。他已经有够多的罪孽了。

And, and then there's Ukraine. The largest part. 780,000. 788,000. Killed or wounded. Russians. He calls them all Russians. Even those who don't know, who don't know how to speak Russian. On his territory of Russia, everything they've enslaved. Yes. Proud Varangians. So I wonder, is that love? What love is this? And for what? Does he love his people? No. Does he love his land? His country is bigger than America. How much land do you need? America is huge. America is simply an outstanding country. Outstanding country. Russia is bigger. Well, just bigger. So, so ask yourself, does he love them? What is he doing? And what does he love?

然后，还有乌克兰。最大的部分。78万。78.8万。被杀或受伤的。俄罗斯人。他把他们都称为俄罗斯人。即使那些不会说俄语的人。在他的俄罗斯领土上，所有他们奴役的人。是的。自豪的瓦良格人。所以我想知道，这是爱吗？这是什么样的爱？又是为了什么？他爱他的人民吗？不。他爱他的土地吗？他的国家比美国还大。你需要多少土地？美国很大。美国真的是一个了不起的国家。了不起的国家。俄罗斯更大。嗯，就是更大。所以，问问你自己，他爱他们吗？他在做什么？他爱什么？

Do you think he's been everywhere? In his Russia? It's impossible to get around it. He hasn't been everywhere. He just hasn't. Well, I believe that Donald Trump loves America. And I don't think he has been to every single American city. No, no, no. I saw his rallies. So many rallies. No, no, let's, let's be honest. Let's be honest. He had it. And I saw it. And it's very difficult. He's not, I mean, he's not 18. Yes, but he's strong. And this is his will. Everywhere where the war is. I'm sure I pray to God it never will be on your land. Yes. And I'm sure that it will not be. But I'm sure that if you have in some region the problems, how to say earthquake, hurricane, you have it all. Well, I'm sure that President Trump would be there after one day, two or three days. I don't know the security of all these things, but he will be.

你认为他去过每一个地方吗？在他的俄罗斯，是不可能跑遍每个地方的。他并没有去过每一个地方，确实没有。不过，我相信唐纳德·特朗普是热爱美国的。我不认为他去过美国的每一个城市。不，不，我看过他的集会，非常多次集会。不，让我们说实话吧。他来过，我见过他。很难做到，因为他不是18岁的小伙子了。是的，但他很强壮，这是他的意志。他去过每个有战争的地方。我祈祷上帝，永远不会发生在你的土地上。是的，我相信也不会。不过，如果你们某个地区出现问题，比如地震、飓风之类的，我相信特朗普总统会在一两天或三天后赶到那里。我不清楚所有这些事情的安保，但是我相信他会去的。

Otherwise, how will people look at him? Yes, of course he will. Of course. The same about me. I'm not comparing myself with him. I'm just where it is difficult for people. I have to come. The question, the next question is very simple. Region. Kursk region. The operation there. Did Putin was put in in Kursk during, during four months? No. Listen, I have tremendous respect for you. Admuration for many reasons, one of which is you stayed in Kyiv. And another one is that you visit the front and you talk to the soldiers in the front and you talk to people all across Ukraine. Absolutely. Tremendous respect for that. And not enough people say that, you know, I had a conversation with Tucker Carlson, for example. And, you know, I said that you're a hero for staying in Kyiv. And he said, well, he just did a thing that every leader should do. But I think not enough leaders do the thing that every leader should do. So tremendous respect. I agree with you totally. Yes. A leader should go to the front of a war.

否则，人们会怎么看他呢？是的，当然他会这样做。当然。我也是一样的情况。我并不是在拿自己跟他比较，而是在说某些地方对大家来说很困难，我必须去。下一个问题很简单：区域。库尔斯克地区。那里的行动。普京是否曾在四个月内去过库尔斯克？没有。听着，我非常尊重您，出于很多原因，我对您充满敬意，其中之一是您留在基辅。另外一个原因是您访问了前线，并与前线的士兵以及整个乌克兰的人们交流。这一点实在令人敬佩。很少有人指出这一点。比如，我和塔克·卡尔森谈话时，我说您因为留在基辅而成为英雄。他却说，这只是每个领导人都应该做的事情。但我认为，并不是所有领导人都做了他们应该做的事。所以，我对您极其尊重。我完全同意您的观点。是的，领导人应该去战争前线。

You know, that said, America has waged wars all across the world that has the war in the, you know, in Afghanistan and Iraq cost $9 trillion and killed over a million people. War is hell. And just because war is waged in terrible ways that it is does not mean the leader does not love their country. But I take your point. I once again have a dream that even if there's hate that you sit down with Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin and you find a way to peace. Let me ask you a question. What do you think? Will there ever be a day when the Ukrainian people forgive the Russian people and both peoples will travel back and forth again and marry each other? Rekindle and form friendships. Will there be such a time in the future? I think history has long answered this question. I don't know how it will be for us.

你知道，话虽如此，美国在世界各地发动战争，比如在阿富汗和伊拉克的战争，耗资9万亿美元，还导致超过一百万人丧生。战争是地狱。战争以可怕的方式进行，但这并不意味着领导者不爱自己的国家。但我理解你的观点。我再一次有一个梦想，即使有仇恨，你也能与唐纳德·特朗普和弗拉基米尔·普京坐下来，找到通向和平的途径。我想问你一个问题：你认为有没有可能有一天乌克兰人民能原谅俄罗斯人民，两国人民可以再次互相往来、通婚，重建和发展友谊？未来会有这样的时刻吗？我认为历史早已回答了这个问题。我不知道我们将会如何。

Ah, it will be in the future without a doubt. History has shown this time and again after every devastating war, one generation, one country recognizes that it was an aggressor and it comes to realize this is impossible to forgive. This is precisely the kind of education they've had in Germany for many years, even though these children had nothing to do with it. It was their grandfathers who who participated and not all of them were participants of Nazi Germany's war against essentially against the world. Yes. And against life and therefore they're still apologizing. Apologizing is not easy. They know that they were the aggressors. They were guilty. They do not look for compromise in history. Compromise in itself by his time and they understand this. There are convicted murderers condemned both historically and by their own people. Reparations have been paid and security guarantees have been established by the way. And all this is done.

啊，未来无疑会如此。历史一再证明，在每次毁灭性战争之后，总会有一代人，一个国家意识到自己曾是侵略者，并认识到这种行为是不可原谅的。这正是多年来德国所进行的教育，尽管这些孩子与战争无关。他们的祖父辈曾参与其中，但并非所有人都是纳粹德国对世界乃至生命的战争的参与者。因此，他们至今仍在道歉。道歉并不容易，他们知道自己是侵略者，他们有罪。他们不在历史中寻找妥协，因为妥协本身只会拖延时间，而他们明白这一点。他们被历史和本国人民谴责为犯下历史罪行的凶手。此外，赔偿也已支付，安全保障也已建立。所有这些已经完成。

And when all this is done and recognized in any case people develop relations with each other. That's clear. But it can only happen the way it always has always has in history. Russia will have to apologize. It will. This will happen because they are guilty. They are guilty. And as I told you, the guilty are different. Both those who participated and and those who remain silent because silence is also about participating. In my opinion. Can I ask about Donald Trump? We've already mentioned him a lot, but let's focus there. What do you admire? What do you respect about Donald Trump? And also maybe why do you think he won? Overwhelmingly the election in 2024 that American people chose him. He was stronger. He was much more stronger than Kamala Harris by then first and then Kamala Harris.

当这一切完成并被认可时，人们就会彼此建立关系。这是显而易见的。但这只能像历史上一贯发生的那样进行。俄罗斯需要道歉。这将会发生，因为他们有罪。他们有罪。而且如我所说，罪人是有区别的。不论是参与者还是保持沉默的人，因为沉默也是一种参与。在我看来。我可以问问关于唐纳德·特朗普的事吗？我们已经多次提到他，但让我们集中关注这个问题。你钦佩或尊重特朗普的哪一点？为什么你认为他在2024年压倒性地赢得了选举，被美国人民选中。他比当时的卡玛拉·哈里斯更强，更强。

Yes. He showed that he can he can intellectually and physically. It wasn't important point to show that if you want to have a strong country, you have to be strong. And he was strong. And this number of rallies, what I said is not a simple thing. He showed that he can. He is strong. So he he doesn't have any questions with his, I mean, this age and etc. Nothing. He is young. He is young here and his brains work. So I think I think it's important. Very important. And of course, a lot of interior questions. I understand the prices and etc. Economic questions. And the questions off, you have the questions with with other things. Immigration. Yeah. A lot of things. I understand. So maybe he answered.

是的，他展示了自己的智力和体力。他想证明如果你想要一个强大的国家，你自己必须要强大，而他确实很强大。他参与了众多集会，这可不是件简单的事情。他已经证明了自己的实力，他的年龄等因素不再是个问题。他非常有活力，脑筋运转良好，我认为这很重要，十分重要。当然，国内有很多问题，我明白，比如物价和经济问题，还有其他问题，比如移民等。我都能理解，也许他已对此做出了回应。

Answered on those on those questions which people had. One of the questions that he will finish the war that he will finish the war. Yeah, for me, this is the main question. But I said that for him, he's the president of the United States. For him, his priority is his questions in the United States. And I understand and I respect it. But the second he was speaking about the world, yes, he said that he will finish the war. And I hope very much. Because I think that our people really support his idea. And that's why I said it is for me. It's very, very important.

回答了人们提出的问题。其中一个问题是他是否会结束战争。是的，对我来说，这是主要问题。但我也提到，他是美国总统，他的首要任务是处理国内的问题，我理解并尊重这一点。但他也谈到了全球事务，他确实说过他将会结束战争。我非常希望如此，因为我认为我们的人民真心支持他的想法。所以我说，对我来说，这非常非常重要。

To have enough people around him. Who will have connections with him with the right things. For me, the truth is very right things. What's going on really? The battlefield. What's going on really with Putin and Russia? What he really wants. And that is just to have it. You know, before any decision, you have to be at the same level of information. And we need really, we need him to know everything from us. From you. From from people in Ukraine. From people around who are really afraid. Afraid that Putin doesn't want to stop the war. Afraid that he will come back with his aggression. So first of all, I should mention that our conversation today will be translated and dubbed into Ukrainian, English, Russian, other languages, Spanish. So you're in your voice. So there are great guys originally from Poland. It's a company called 11 Labs. They use, they've trained an AI. Artificial intelligence sounds truly remarkable in your voice. You have the freedom to speak in any language you choose. But no matter what, you will always find yourself returning to speaking in Ukrainian. That is when you talk about Donald Trump, you can do it in Ukrainian or Russian. Everybody understands everybody understands. But you said that there's some things about the war that maybe America's don't understand. So we talked about Putin. We talked about the security guarantees, but the reality of war. What's happening on the ground? What do you think that people should understand?

为了让他身边有足够的人，他们能在正确的事情上与他建立联系。对我来说，真相就是那些非常正确的事情。到底发生了什么？战场上究竟发生了什么，尤其是关于普京和俄罗斯？他真正想要的是什么。就是要得到它。在做出任何决定之前，你必须在信息上达到同一水平。我们真的需要他了解我们的一切，来自你的信息，从乌克兰的人们，从周围那些真的很害怕的人那里。害怕普京不愿意停止战争，害怕他会卷土重来发起侵略。首先，我要提到我们今天的谈话会被翻译并配音为乌克兰语、英语、俄语、西班牙语及其他语言，因此有你的声音。本来有一些很优秀的人来自波兰，一家叫做11 Labs的公司，他们训练了一种AI。人工智能可以以非常真实的方式用你的声音来表达。你可以自由选择使用任何语言，但无论怎样，你总会发现自己又回到了说乌克兰语的时候。比如当你谈论特朗普时，你可以用乌克兰语或俄语。大家都能理解。但你提到关于战争的一些事情美国人可能不了解。所以我们谈到了普京，谈到了安全保障，但战争的现实呢？在地面上发生了什么？你认为人们应该理解什么？

First of all, they have to understand the idea of Putin's war. It is very important for him. I consider this process. I think it is very important for him not to give Ukraine independence. To prevent Ukraine from developing an independent country for him, influence on Ukraine cannot be lost. And for him, it is, you know, like I think for him, this is such a goal in this last mile. And certainly for him, the last mile and of his political life. And I think that this is the goal for him. The second story. I do not want to talk about these banalities that he wants to return. All the territories of the Soviet Union influence over them. He does this little by little. I just don't want to. People need to know details. For example, Georgia, which was headed towards the UN NATO completely turns towards Russia, regardless of. Of the fact that they have frozen conflicts, they have in up. What we have with Donbas, which is controlled by militant rebels. Up. It's not developing. It's just a part, a very beautiful part of Georgia that has died. And if you have the opportunity, then go there someday. You will understand it simply died because Putin wanted to. He wanted not to allow them to develop because of frozen conflict means that you will not be accepted. In the EU and certainly will not be accepted into NATO because right now, yes, they do not take you because of a frozen conflict. And this is what Putin did. It's very important for him not to lose this influence. That is he turned back Georgia. Young people, students, everyone leaves. And this is a fact. Georgia is quite small. And they will leave. They want to live in Europe. They want to develop somebody in the United States, somebody in Europe, somebody in the EU, somebody in Britain. He will now fight for the Moldovan parliament. This is his second step. You will see in April what happens. You will see, oh, he will start turning Moldova away away from Europe. Although they want to go there, he does not care. They will be a pro-Russian party and they will do something with the current president because she has won the elections. She is pro-European, but he will turn this back. The next steps are completely clear. He will do everything wherever he has lost influence, where there was influence of the Soviet Union. He'll turn it back as much as possible. And we understand at what price you have seen Syria. You saw these tortures, what we saw in butcher, what we saw everywhere we came and where our territories were occupied. In Syria, the same happened. There were a thousand people there. And you have seen it. Scientists were found. Doctors were found. It is clear that any people are capable of generating their own opinion. Show their skills, develop society. Everyone who can express an opinion. Everyone who can shape the independence and maturity of society such people are not needed. And he wants this in Ukraine. And therefore, everyone should understand that Ukraine is like a large wall. From that, Europe and if God willing, President Trump does not withdraw from NATO. Because again, I believe that this is the biggest risk. I think two steps. Two steps that Putin would like to see is a weak NATO. And this without Trump. And a weak Ukraine, which cannot survive on the battlefield simply cannot survive and prevent me from building a strong relationship with Trump. I think these two steps, leaving NATO and Ukraine's weakness will lead to a large-scale war. Which Putin will wage on all the territories of that Europe.

首先，他们必须理解普京战争的想法。对他来说，这非常重要。我认为这个过程对他而言极其重要，因为他不想让乌克兰独立。不允许乌克兰发展为一个独立国家，对他来说对乌克兰的影响力不能丢失。对他而言，这就像是他政治生命最后阶段的一个目标。我认为这就是他的目标。第二个故事，我不想谈论那些陈词滥调，说他想恢复苏联所有的领土影响力。他确实在一点一点地这样做。人们需要知道细节。比如格鲁吉亚，它本来是朝着联合国和北约方向发展的，但最终却无论如何转向了俄罗斯。就像顿巴斯一样，被武装叛军控制，局势僵持不前。这是一个非常美丽的地方，但因为普京不允许其发展，它死去了。而且如果有机会，你应该去看看，你会理解的。因为冻结的冲突意味着你不会被欧盟接纳，当然更不会加入北约。这就是普京所做的，对他来说保持这种影响力非常重要。他把格鲁吉亚拉回去了。年轻人、学生、所有人都在离开，这个事实不可否认。格鲁吉亚国家很小，他们会离开，他们想在欧洲生活，想发展。普京现在会为了摩尔多瓦议会而斗争，这是他的第二步。你将在四月看到发生了什么。他会开始让摩尔多瓦远离欧洲，尽管他们想去那里，他不在乎。那里会有一个亲俄政党，他们会对现任支持欧洲的总统采取行动。下一步非常明确，他会在他失去影响力的地方尽力恢复苏联时代的影响力，我们也明白这会付出怎样的代价。你见过叙利亚，见过那些折磨，也看过我们所到之处和被占领地区发生的事情。在叙利亚也是如此，那里曾有上千人。科学家、医生都有发现。任何能够表达自己观点，展示技能和发展社会的人对他来说都是不需要的。而他希望在乌克兰实现这样的控制。因此，每个人都应该理解乌克兰就像是一堵阻挡俄罗斯影响力的墙。如果上帝愿意，总统特朗普不从北约退出。因为我相信这是最大的风险。我认为普京希望看到的两个步骤是一个削弱的北约，以及一个无法在战场上生存下来的乌克兰，无法阻止他与特朗普建立强大关系。如果这两步实现，退出北约和乌克兰的弱化，将导致一场大规模的战争。普京将在整个欧洲的领土上进行战争。

Post-Soviet Europe. I mean, Soviet Europe, not post-Soviet, but post-World War II period. That is Soviet Europe, Soviet era Europe in order to completely control everything there. This is what he will do. And besides this, this will happen in any case. Even if the US is thinking about leaving NATO. This war will affect the United States because North Korea is the first sign. North Korean skills, North Korean knowledge, which they are now gaining from this war. These include mastering new technologies, large-scale drones, missiles, how it works, the kind of technological war we have today, cyber war, etc. All these skills, Korea, will bring home and scale up in that region. And this will be a risk for the Pacific region.

后苏联欧洲。我指的是苏联控制下的欧洲，而不是后苏联时期，而是二战后那个苏联时代的欧洲，苏联希望完全控制那里的一切。这正是他会做的事情。此外，这种情况无论如何都会发生，即使美国考虑退出北约。这场战争也将影响美国，因为朝鲜是第一个预兆。朝鲜正从这场战争中获得技能和知识，包括掌握新技术、大型无人机、导弹的运作、现代技术战争如网络战等等。所有这些技巧朝鲜都会带回国内，并在该地区进行规模化。这将对太平洋地区构成风险。

Security first and foremost, for Japan and for South Korea, they will face these risks 100%. And it will be clear that Taiwan will also have to face them. Without this, it is impossible. This is already happening. This is already happening. Therefore, I think that President Trump has all power to stop Putin and give Ukraine strong security guarantees. We've been talking for two hours at the pause. Do you want to take the pause? Yeah, we will make a pause. We can have coffee, right? Coffee? Let's do it. Yeah. And give the interpreter. He's struggling. He's struggling. Some water. We keep switching languages. Like a dragon, you know? Three heads, three translators.

首先，安全是最重要的，对于日本和韩国来说，他们将百分之百地面临这些风险。而且很明显，台湾也必须面对这些风险。没有这一点，这是不可能的。这已经在发生了。这已经在发生了。因此，我认为特朗普总统有能力制止普京，并为乌克兰提供强有力的安全保障。我们已经谈了两个小时，再休息一下。你想休息一下吗？好，我们休息一下。可以喝杯咖啡，对吗？咖啡？就这么定了。还有给翻译点水，他很辛苦。我们不断切换语言，就像一条龙似的，三个头，三个翻译员。

So, one of the difficult decisions you had to make when the war began is to enact martial law. So, when you won the presidency, you were the warrior for freedom. In fact, this war is for freedom. For freedom of the individual freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom. But a lot of freedoms had to be curtailed, sacrificed in this fight because there's so much focus on the war. Do you feel the tension of that, the sacrifice that had to be made in democracy, in freedom, in fighting this war?

所以，当战争开始时，你不得不做出的一个艰难决定是实施戒严令。当你赢得总统职位时，你是自由的斗士。实际上，这场战争就是为了自由。为了个人自由、言论自由、宗教自由。但在这场战争中，由于过多的关注在战争上，很多自由不得不被限制和牺牲。你是否感受到那种紧张感，就是为了这场战争而必须在民主和自由上做出的牺牲？

In any case, this war is for our freedom. Generally speaking, to be honest, when you understand, over time, when the war passes, you understand that your main values are at home. This is your home, your children, your love, God willing, parents are alive. And if, and if not alive, then their memory, visiting their grave. Choosing how to work, how much, preferably choosing where to work. All this is freedom. Freedom is freedom. Freedoms are not just a desire. They are an opportunity. In any case, you are right because war is a limitation of opportunities. In any case, you fight for these opportunities.

无论如何，这场战争是为了我们的自由。总的来说，说实话，当你理解并随着时间的推移，当战争过去后，你会明白你最重要的价值在于家庭。家是你的家，你的孩子，你的爱，愿上天保佑，父母仍然健在。如果不在了，那就纪念他们，去拜访他们的坟墓。选择如何工作，工作多少，最好还能选择在哪里工作。这一切都是自由。自由就是自由。自由不仅仅是一种愿望，而是一种机会。无论如何，你是正确的，因为战争限制了这些机会。无论如何，你是在为这些机会而战斗。

Your parents, your parents and God gave you life, right? You fight for your life, your life. But we need to understand that first there is a war and then martial law is introduced. Martial law is not introduced because someone wanted to. You say, this is not Pinochet, this is not Pinochet and so on. This is a completely different story. An aggressor came and according to your legislation, if the border is violated, if there is armed aggression, you have all this written down long ago written out in legislation. You introduce martial law and the introduction of martial law everywhere at all times means, in any case, a restriction of opportunities. If opportunities are limited, rights and freedoms are restricted, therefore the war itself restricts rights and freedoms.

你的父母和上帝赋予了你生命，对吧？你为了生命而奋斗。但是，我们需要理解，首先是一场战争，然后才颁布戒严令。颁布戒严令并不是因为有人想这样做。你可能会说，这不是皮诺切特，不是皮诺切特等等。这是完全不同的情况。入侵者来了，根据你的法律规定，如果边界被侵犯，或者有武装侵略，这些情况很早就在法律中有所规定。在这种情况下，你需要颁布戒严令，而在任何时候颁布戒严令都意味着限制各种机会。如果机会受限，那么权利和自由也会被限制，因此战争本身就限制了权利和自由。

Yes, and you can't do anything about it. We try honestly to balance as much as possible. I believe that the business sector works despite the difficulties of the war and we do everything somewhere. You know, they're somewhere to reduce some load. Unfortunately, we cannot reduce taxes. On the contrary, a military tax is used for war. You need to take money somewhere. This, by the way, is about the fact that the US gave us a lot and Europe too. But compared to how much we needed for the war, this is not all. As for military salaries, you know, you know that we could not pay the salaries of a million strong army. We could not pay it using the money from our partners. These are all expenses. This is all the money that the country and people have accumulated. You can't do anything. I really want to reduce taxes. I will tell you, frankly, I really want to. Well, I think that the whole new tax system, new deregulation, new steps, new reforms, all this will be after the war. Although there is something to brag about, this is proof. And this is a document because if you want to get a candidacy for European Union, you must implement the appropriate number of reforms. We do everything. During the war, we voted for many reforms, including anti-corruption, banking reforms, land reforms, major reforms. We started a large privatization and the war did not stop us. Yes, it slowed down, but we went through a lot.

是的，你对此无能为力。我们尽量诚实地做到平衡。我相信尽管战争有困难，商业部门依然运作，并且我们在某些方面尽力而为。你也知道，他们在某些地方减少了部分负担。但遗憾的是，我们无法降低税收。相反，军费税用于战争。资金需要从某个地方来。而且，美国给了我们很多，欧洲也是。但相较于战事的需求，这并不是全部。至于军人的薪资，你知道，我们没法用合作伙伴的钱来支付百万大军的薪水。这些都是开销，这是国家和人民积累的所有资金。对此你无能为力。我真的想减税，老实说，我非常想。然而，我认为所有新的税收体系、新的放松管制、新的步骤、新的改革，都将在战争结束后进行。虽然我们有一些值得炫耀的东西，这是有据可查的。因为如果你想获得欧盟的候选资格，你必须实施足够数量的改革。我们所做的一切。在战争期间，我们通过了许多改革，包括反腐、银行、土地和重大改革。我们启动了大规模的私有化，而战争没有阻止我们。虽然进展放缓，但我们经历了很多。

When do you think you will hold elections? Because for people who don't know, part of the martial law elections were suspended and they were delayed and delayed and delayed. I think the next sort of plan is in February of 2025. But when do you think there will be presidential elections in Ukraine?

你认为你们什么时候会举行选举？因为对于不了解情况的人来说，部分戒严情况下选举被暂停并一再推迟。我想下一次计划是在2025年2月。但你认为乌克兰何时会举行总统选举呢？

Elections were postponed once. They were not delayed to be clear. Elections did not take place in 2024. That year, first of all, we need to understand the Constitution. They were scheduled to be held in the spring of 2024. Due to martial law, under the Constitution, you cannot do this. These are the presidential elections. The parliamentary elections did not take place in the fall of 2024, according to the Constitution. Yes, there are security things. There is the Constitution, but there are security things.

选举曾经被推迟过一次，但需要明确的是，它们并未被延期。在2024年，没有进行选举。首先，我们需要理解宪法。原定于2024年春季举行选举，但由于戒严，根据宪法，这无法实行。这是总统选举。根据宪法，议会选举也未在2024年秋季举行。是的，有安全方面的考虑。有宪法，但也有安全问题。

That is, everyone in Ukraine understands that this cannot be done until the war is over or legislation needs to be changed. I believe that elections will take place immediately. After the end of martial law, this is according to the law. Members of the parliament need to get together and change legislation, which will be very difficult to do because society is against it. Why society against it? It is understandable why, because we want elections that we want to trust.

也就是说，乌克兰的每个人都明白，直到战争结束或者法律修改之前，这是行不通的。我相信选举会立即进行。在戒严结束后，根据法律，这是合乎程序的。议会成员需要聚集起来修改法律，但这将非常困难，因为社会反对。为什么社会会反对呢？这很好理解，因为我们希望举行可信的选举。

8.5 million people went abroad. The infrastructure needs to be created for these millions of people to vote. Millions of people in the occupied territories. I'm not even talking about the occupation of 2014. I'm talking about the occupation right now. What to do with these people? This is a difficult question. One of the most unfair ones is how to vote without having a million soldiers. That is, it is impossible.

850万人出国。需要为这些数百万人投票创造基础设施。还有数百万人生活在被占领地区。我不是在谈论2014年的占领，而是指现在正在发生的占领。该如何处理这些人？这是一个艰难的问题。其中最不公平的问题之一是，如何在没有百万级士兵的情况下进行投票。这几乎是不可能的。

We need to think about how to change the system if the elections are held in times of war, change the legislation, which should include changes to the voting system. To think about online voting, everyone is afraid because of certain attacks, like cyber attacks and so on. But we need to think about it. I really think that it's possible that we can in the war in 2025. In January. We've already agreed on it. I would very much like to. I would very much like to. After the war. Immediately. Yes, immediately.

我们需要考虑如果选举在战争时期举行，该如何改变体制，并改变包括投票系统在内的法律。应该考虑在线投票，尽管大家因为网络攻击等问题感到担心。但我们需要思考这个问题。我真的认为我们有可能在2025年1月结束战争。我们已经就此达成一致。我非常希望能够这么做。在战争结束后。立刻。是的，立刻。

In the year of the end of the war, it's a fact. Why? Because when martial law ends, you can immediately vote in parliament to hold elections. And then everyone, everyone will vote because there are no restrictive measures. And after they vote, I think elections can be held in 90 days. Something. Something like that. Yes. And this means that immediately after the end of the war, elections may take place in 90 days.

在战争结束的那一年，这是一个事实。为什么呢？因为当戒严结束时，你可以立即在议会投票决定举行选举。然后每个人都会参与投票，因为没有限制措施。我认为投票后可以在90天内举行选举。大概是这样。是的，这意味着战争结束后，90天内就可以举行选举。

Are you running for reelection? Even I don't know really. I don't know. I don't know. It is a very difficult question. It depends on how this war will finish. It depends on what people will want. Mostly it depends on people. First of all, and of course, my family. We had no time to speak about it with my family. And of course, didn't have a chance because we don't think about it now. And it's something, you know, there are a lot of, not a lot of, but enough voices in Ukraine from politicians, opposition and etc. About this, yes.

你会竞选连任吗？即便是我自己，也不确定。我不知道。我不知道。这是一个非常困难的问题。这要看这场战争会如何结束，也要看人民的意愿。主要还是取决于人民，当然，还有我的家庭。我们没有时间和家人讨论这个问题。当然也没有机会去考虑，因为我们现在没有考虑这个事情。而且你知道，有很多，虽然不多，但足够的声音从乌克兰的政客、反对派等方面对此发出了意见。

But we don't think really seriously, didn't think seriously with my family about it. So this is war. I mean, how to think about what will be after? It's very difficult, really very difficult. If we look at the field of candidates, I just, maybe you can give your opinion about the set of ideas you see out there, including your own, about the future of Ukraine. As I understand, the candidates include Parshanko, was allusion, I stowage, Bodhana, Klitschko, and many others. This is the internet speaking to me. What do you think are the space of ideas that these candidates represent?

但我们并没有认真思考过，我和家人没有认真考虑过这个问题。所以这是战争。我的意思是，如何去思考战后会怎样？真的很困难，非常困难。如果我们看看候选人阵营，也许你可以谈谈你看到的那些想法，包括你自己的，对乌克兰未来的看法。据我了解，候选人包括帕什琴科、瓦卢申、斯托维奇、博达纳、克里琴科和其他许多人。这是网络对我说的话。你认为这些候选人代表了哪些思想空间？

You know, I think it can be. There can be even a bigger number of candidates. Yeah, I don't really know what will be. They have rights to participate if they want to. Yes, if they really want to and can, they can go and do what they want, honestly. Most important is what are they doing now? I think that all these people are famous Ukrainian people and it's important for them to do everything they can today, not begin any election campaign. I think this, what can divide our people to have the elections during the war. I mean, this make steps. Speak about elections a lot, you know, make a big mess about it. I think this is not right. That's why I'm not agreeing with some of these people, but they can and they, I think that they can and maybe some of them will. And it's okay. It's normal. It's very normal. Our system differs from the system in the United States. You have two parties and the parties decide who will be the leader. And in Ukraine, everybody can participate. Let them.

你知道，我认为这有可能。候选人的数量可能会更多。是的，我不太清楚会发生什么。如果他们想，他们有权参加。是的，如果他们真的想并且可以的话，他们可以去做他们想做的，坦率地说。最重要的是他们现在在做什么？我认为所有这些人都是著名的乌克兰人士，对他们来说，重要的是今天尽其所能，而不是开始任何竞选。我认为，在战争期间进行选举可能会使我们的人民分裂。我是说，这会导致步骤。谈论很多选举，知道的，搞得一团糟。我认为这样不对。这就是为什么我不同意其中一些人，但他们可以，而且我认为他们可以，也许他们中的一些人会。这没关系。这是正常的。这非常正常。我们的体制与美国的体制不同。你们有两个政党，是政党决定谁将成为领导人。而在乌克兰，所有人都可以参与。让他们参与吧。

You think you're going to win the debate? You versus a losing the pershank or a storage. And you decide to run. Do you think you're going to win the debate? Or you're again focused on the war and everyone really focusing on the war. I understand. I think the most difficult debate is what will be brought to the table and we spoke about it. It will be during the war. How to finish the war. I think that is my goal because it will be one of my most complicated debates. And for any president who is in a war, of course, but I think this is my goal to win those debates. And the other things are not not for today. As I said, the dream I have is it's a historic opportunity to make peace, to make lasting peace soon. So I'm glad you're focused on that. Let me ask a question about that a lot of people in the United States think about. And I care a lot about about the future of Ukraine. It's corruption. This is something you have cared a lot about for a long time. You won the presidency in 2019 in big part your message of fighting corruption. But there's a lot of accusations that during war, I mentioned $9 trillion in the United States. War breeds corruption. So can you speak to that? How you have been fighting corruption and you can you respond to the accusations that has been corruption in Ukraine?

你认为自己会在辩论中获胜吗？你和一个失败的人辩论，或者储存起来的东西。而你决定参与其中。你认为你会赢得辩论吗？还是你又专注于战争，所有人也在聚焦战争。我明白，我觉得最困难的辩论在于我们将会提出什么，我们谈到的也是这个。会是在战争期间，如何结束战争。我认为这是我的目标，因为这将是我最复杂的辩论之一。当然，对于任何在战争中的总统也是如此，但我认为我的目标是赢得这些辩论。其他事情则不是今天要考虑的。正如我所说，我的梦想是这是一个历史性的机会去实现和平，尽快实现持久的和平。所以我很高兴你们专注于此。让我提一个很多美国人都会考虑的问题，也就是我非常关注的乌克兰的未来：腐败。你一直以来对这个问题非常关注，并且在2019年赢得总统职位，很大程度上就是因为你打击腐败的主张。但有很多指控提到，在战争期间，我提到的美国9万亿美元问题，战争滋生腐败。那么你能谈谈你是如何打击腐败的吗？你能对乌克兰腐败的指控做出回应吗？

You know, it's very simple. First of all, we really have a very sophisticated anti-corruption system. Sophisticated not in the sense that it's difficult to understand, but in that it really consists of many elements. It's the most sophisticated in all of Europe. This is another requirement of the European Union. It was a requirement for Ukraine. And for many years, Ukraine was not trusted. I want to tell you that under me, we all voted for bills, all the anti-corruption reforms, well, almost all reforms, and all anti-corruption bodies today are independent. They work. As requested. I still believe that they are not perfect yet. There are many issues. There is a judicial system, but also a judicial reform that our partners, the United States, plus the EU demanded from us. This is all written out. This is written out in specific laws, in specific decrees, in specific decisions. We did this. We've done 99% of this. If something has not been done, it means that it is on the way. But in principle, all this exists. And there is no such system as we have in Europe. To say that we do not have corruption would be lying. We just talk about it openly. We are genuinely fighting against it. Look, we have sitting in our prison, Eor Kolomowski, who is the most influential Ukrainian oligarch since independence. And no one could do anything about him. The United States of America wanted to have Kolomowski, and they went to great lengths because of money laundering, etc. There are criminal cases in the United States, I think in Delaware, something like that. Neither Europe could do anything about it. That is, we did a lot with oligarchs. Russian oligarchs, sanctions were imposed. They were thrown out. Some of them fled the state. But they are all under sanctions. We exchanged some of them for our soldiers, such as Medvedchuk, to whose daughter Putin is Godfather. That is, we fought against the strongest influential oligarchs, which are and were in Ukraine, and we eliminated a lot of corruption. Of course, corruption exists in everyday life. It exists, but institutionally, I am sure that Ukraine will overcome all this. This takes a little time, I would say honestly, that listen, what we call corruption. And in some state of the world is called Lobbyism. But this does not mean that there is no corruption there. Let's take the aid you mentioned during the war.

你知道吗，其实这很简单。首先，我们有一个非常完善的反腐系统。这里的“完善”并不是指难以理解，而是指它由许多要素构成。这是全欧洲最完善的系统之一。这也是欧盟对我们的一个要求，特别是对乌克兰的要求。多年来，乌克兰一直被人不信任。我想告诉你，在我的领导下，我们都参与了各种法案的表决，几乎完成了所有的反腐改革，所有的反腐机构如今都是独立运作的。他们照要求在工作。我还是觉得这些还不够完美，还有很多问题要解决。在司法系统方面，我们也进行了司法改革，这是美国和欧盟的要求。这一切都在具体的法律、法令和决定中体现了。我们已经完成了99%的工作。若有未完成的，那就是正在进行中。但原则上，这些系统已经存在。我们欧洲没有类似的系统。说我们没有腐败是撒谎。我们只是公开谈论这个问题，积极地打击腐败。比如，我们的监狱里关押着科洛莫伊斯基，他是在独立后最具影响力的乌克兰寡头，美国曾因洗钱等行为对他产生兴趣，并在这方面投入大量精力。在美国有刑事案件，我想是在特拉华州。欧洲也对此无能为力。也就是说，我们在寡头问题上做了很多努力。对俄罗斯寡头实施了制裁，赶出了他们。一些人逃离了国家，但他们仍然在制裁之下。我们与我们的士兵交换了一些寡头，比如梅德韦丘克，他的女儿的教父是普京。也就是说，我们与最强势的乌克兰寡头进行了斗争，消除了很多腐败。当然，腐败在日常生活中依然存在，但从制度层面上，我相信乌克兰会战胜这些问题。我诚实地说，这需要一点时间。听着，我们所说的腐败在世界某些地方可能被称为游说。但这并不意味着那里没有腐败。就像你提到的战争期间的援助一样。

First of all, we have no money. We have no money except for the war. We received weapons from the United States of America, from Europe. If we take, for example, money from the United States of America, during all this time of the war, around 177 billion have been voted for or decided upon. 177 billion. Let's be honest. We have not received half of this money. The second point, which is very important just as an example, is a corruption. The first question, whose corruption? This is the second. Here is just one small example for you. When the United States began to transfer us weapons, it was American money, but American weapons. Money for these weapons. I had, as a president, I had cargo jets, not in Ukraine because of the war. We moved them very quickly to Europe. We had cargo. We have good cargo fleet. Very good. Because of Antonov. So I asked American side to grant me the opportunity because our jets are at another airfield. And I asked America to give me the opportunity to use our jets for transfer, not to pay a lot. To whom? To your companies? To American companies? No, I didn't get this opportunity. My jets stayed put. And the United States jets, cargo jets, moved these weapons. But everywhere you have to spend money. So we could get more weapons, but we have to pay for this. Very expensive fleet. My question. Is this corruption or not? Or lobbyism? What is it? You mean corruption on the part of the US companies? Yes, making such decisions. The lobbying for such decisions involves some companies that make these decisions.

首先，我们没有钱。除了战争以外，我们没钱。我们从美国和欧洲收到了武器。举个例子，美国在整个战争期间，投票或决定提供的资金大约是1770亿美元。1770亿。坦诚地说，我们没有收到一半以上的资金。第二点，同样重要的是腐败问题。第一个问题，这是谁的腐败？这是第二个。给你举个简单的例子。当美国开始向我们转移武器时，这是美国的钱，但也是美国的武器，是武器的钱。作为总统，我当时有货机，因为战争它们不在乌克兰。我们很快就把它们转移到欧洲。我们有货运机队。很好的货运机队。因为安东诺夫。所以我请求美国方面给我机会，因为我们的飞机在另一个机场。我要求美国允许我使用我们的飞机来运送，以节省开支。不想花大价钱。这笔钱给谁？给你们的公司？给美国公司？但我没有得到这样的机会。我的飞机停着，美国的货机在运送这些武器。但你到处都得花钱。所以我们可以得到更多武器，但我们必须为此付费。这是非常昂贵的机队。我的问题是。这是腐败还是游说？这是什么？你是指美国公司的腐败吗？是的，做出这样的决定。对这些决策的游说涉及到一些公司在做这些决策。

But I can't be open about it and I couldn't speak loudly about it. I didn't want nor did I intend to cause any scandals to arise because otherwise you can freeze the support. And that's it. And that's why when we talk about corruption, we must ask who is involved. If we had 177 and if we get the half, where is the half? If you will find the second half, you will find corruption. There is a perception of corruption. People like Donald Trump and Elon Musk really care about fighting corruption. What can you say to them to gain their trust that the money is going towards this fight for freedom, towards the war effort?

我不能公开谈论这件事，也不能大声说出来。我不想也无意引发任何丑闻，否则可能导致支持被冻结。就是这样。因此，当我们谈论腐败时，我们必须问是谁参与其中。如果我们有177，如果拿到其中一半，那另一半在哪里？找到另一半，就能找到腐败的所在。人们对腐败有所感觉。像唐纳德·特朗普和埃隆·马斯克这样的人非常关心反腐败。你能对他们说些什么，以获得他们的信任，确保资金确实用于这场自由的斗争和战争努力？

In most cases, we did not receive money. We received weapons. And where we saw risks that something could be a weapon, we would slap everyone on the wrist. And believe me, this is not only about Ukraine, on the supply chain. Everywhere. There are some or other people and companies who want to make money because everyone makes money on the war. We did not profit from the war. If we found someone, believe me, we slapped everyone on the wrist. And we did that. We did that.

在大多数情况下，我们没有收到金钱。我们收到的是武器。而且在我们看到有可能构成武器风险的地方，我们会给每个人以警告。相信我，这不仅仅是关于乌克兰的问题，而是在整个供应链上。到处都有一些人或公司想要从战争中赚钱，因为每个人都在战争中获利。而我们并没有从战争中获利。如果我们发现有什么问题，相信我，我们会给每个人以警告。我们确实这样做了，我们确实这样做了。

And we will continue to do so because to this day, when someone says that Ukraine was selling weapons, and by the way, Russia was the one pushing this narrative. We always responded. Our soldiers would kill such people with their own hands without any trial. Do you honestly think anyone could steal weapons by the truckload when we ourselves don't have enough on the front lines? And yet we have to provide proof to defend ourselves because when there is an abundance of such misinformation, distrust starts to grow. And you're right. People listen to various media outlets. See this and lose faith in you. In the end, you lose trust. And with it, you lose support.

我们将继续采取行动，因为直到今天，当有人说乌克兰在出售武器时——顺便提一下，这是俄罗斯在推动的说法——我们总是回应说，我们的士兵会亲手处置这样的人，而无需经过任何审判。你真的认为有人可以成车地偷运武器，而我们的前线自己都不够用吗？尽管如此，我们仍需要提供证据来为自己辩护，因为在这样的错误信息泛滥时，人们会开始产生不信任。你说得对，人们听各种媒体的报道，看到这些后对你失去信心。最终，你失去了信任，也就失去了支持。

Therefore, believe me, we are fighting more against disinformation than against particular cases. Although I still emphasize once again, at the everyday level, such things are still important. We catch these, these people, and we fight them. I mentioned Elon Musk. I would be interested to hear what you think of him, why you respect him as a person, as an engineer, as an innovator, as a businessman. I would just like to hear from you. What do you think about Elon Musk?

因此，相信我，我们与其说是在对抗个别情况，不如说是在对抗虚假信息。不过，我想再次强调，在日常生活中，这些事情仍然很重要。我们会抓住这些人，并与他们作斗争。我提到了埃隆·马斯克。我很想知道你对他的看法，为什么你尊重他，作为一个人、一个工程师、一个创新者、一个企业家。请告诉我，你对埃隆·马斯克有什么看法？

First of all, I had a conversation with him at the beginning of the war. I talked with him. I respect him. First and foremost, I respect the self-made man, right? In English, I love such people. You know, no one and nothing fell into their lap, but the man did something, did it all himself. I worked myself, created a big production company. And I know what it means to make money, to make money, to select talented people, to impart knowledge to them, to invest money, and to create something. Something important for certain people. And I'm not comparing myself to Musk. He just.well, the man is a great leader of innovations in the world. And I believe that such people move the world forward. Therefore, I respect the result of his work. And we see this result. And for me, it has always been important that your result can be used, that these are not words, but facts. Let's take the war. We are very grateful for Starlink. It has helped.

首先，在战争开始时我和他有过一次对话。我和他交谈过，我尊重他。最重要的是，我尊重自力更生的人，对吧？用英语来说，我喜欢这样的人。你知道，没有任何东西是天上掉下来的，他们是靠自己努力做到这些。我自己也曾努力工作，建立了一家大型制作公司。我理解赚钱的意义，发掘有才华的人，向他们传授知识，投资资金，创造一些东西。这些对某些人来说很重要。当然，我并不把自己和马斯克相比。他确实是全球创新的伟大领袖之一。我相信像这样的人推动了世界的进步。因此，我尊重他的工作成果。而我们看到了这些成果。对我来说，重要的是这些成果能够被使用，这不仅仅是说说而已，而是有事实依据的。就拿战争来说吧，我们非常感谢Starlink，它提供了很大帮助。

We used it after Russian missile attacks on the energy infrastructure. There were problems with the internet, etc. With connection. We used Starlink both at the front and in kindergarten. It was used in schools. It helped children. We used it in various infrastructure. And it helped us very much. And I would very much like Elon to be on our side as much as possible to support us. And yes, I am grateful to him for Starlink. Truly, I am. First of all, so that our guys have a connection and children too. And I am really grateful to him for that. I think we need.I would like him to come to Ukraine, to talk to people here, and to look around, and so on. Has Elon visited Kiev or Ukraine yet? No. I hope the Kiev airport will open soon. Then it will be easier to fly in. Yes, I am looking forward to it. Maybe we will open it, but only.

在俄军对能源基础设施的导弹袭击后，我们使用了它。那时，网络等方面存在问题，连接也不稳定。我们在前线和幼儿园都使用了Starlink，它也被用于学校，帮助了孩子们。我们在各种基础设施中使用它，它对我们帮助很大。我非常希望埃隆能继续支持我们。我真的很感激他提供了Starlink。首先，它让我们的士兵和孩子们有了连接。我真的很感激他。我希望他能来乌克兰，和这里的人们交流，亲自看看。埃隆有没有访问过基辅或乌克兰呢？没有。我希望基辅机场能尽快开放，那样飞来会更方便。我非常期待，也许我们会开放它，但只是。

And you must understand if the war is over, there must be sustainable peace and air defense systems, to be honest. And we must ensure that they are long lasting and effective. Let's take the airport, for example, and let's focus on the airport in Zesho, which you know very well as it is handling important cargo for Ukraine in Poland. And there are Patriot systems there because everyone understands what the risk is. Well, Russia is a risk and therefore we need air defense systems.

您必须明白，如果战争结束，就必须有可持续的和平和防空系统，坦率地说。而且我们必须确保这些系统是持久有效的。举个例子，让我们关注Zesho的机场，您对此非常熟悉，因为它处理着乌克兰在波兰的重要货运。那里有爱国者系统，因为人人都明白存在的风险。俄罗斯就是一个风险，因此我们需要防空系统。

And today, today take, for example, the air defense system of one city or another that is being shelled and move it, move it to the airport. Well, that would be dishonest. People are more important than planes. But there will be a moment. And Trump, by the way, I think that the war will end. And President Trump may be the first leader to travel here by airplane. I think it would be, it would be symbolic by airplane.

今天，以一个城市的防空系统为例，它正在遭到炮击，但却被移到了机场。这是不诚实的。人比飞机更重要。但会有一个时刻。另外，顺便说一下，我认为战争会结束，而特朗普总统可能是第一个乘飞机来这里的领导人。我认为以飞机的方式来这里将具有象征意义。

Again, January 25th around that date, right, flying in, meeting the Air Force One. That would be cool. Elon Musk, I will meet you there for the second time too, on the plane with pleasure. And you, by the way, before I forget, let me ask, are you coming on January 20th for President Trump's inauguration? I would like to, of course. I will be considering what is happening then in the war, because there are moments of difficulties, escalation, many missiles, etc.

好的，再说一次，大约是1月25日，对吧，我会飞过去，见到空军一号。那真是太酷了。伊隆·马斯克，我也会第二次在那里见到你，非常开心，这次在飞机上。哦，对了，差点忘了问你，你1月20日会来参加特朗普总统的就职典礼吗？当然，我很想去。但我会考虑当时战争中的情况，因为有时候会有困难、升级、导弹等等问题。

But honestly, well, I can't. I can't come, especially during the war unless President Trump invites me personally. I'm not sure it's proper to come because I know that in general leaders are, for some reason, not usually invited to the inauguration of presidents of the United States of America. Well, and I know that there are leaders who can simply come, want to come and will come.

老实说，我不能来，尤其是在战争期间，除非特朗普总统亲自邀请我。我不确定这样做是否合适，因为我知道一般来说，领导人出于某种原因通常不会被邀请参加美国总统的就职典礼。我也知道有一些领导人可能会简单地想来就来。

Yeah, I know. And I know the temperament of some of these people, they can come at their discretion. This is very, very difficult for me. I am the kind of person that cannot come without an invitation. This is Putin. He did not invite him. He came to us, so to say, and me, I can't do that. No, but didn't he publicly say that? It would be great if you came to the inauguration, or you mean did he invite it efficiently?

好的，我明白。而且我了解这些人的性格，他们可以在自己觉得合适的时候来。这对我来说非常困难。我是那种如果没有邀请就不会去的人。普京就是这样的人。他没有邀请对方，而对方却来了，所以说，而我做不到这一点。可是他不是公开说过，"如果你来参加就好了"还是说他是正式邀请的？

No, wait, look, look, look. Listen, I am against any bureaucracy. I get rid of it as much as I can. But, well, you know, there are some complexities involving security. I decide, and I fly, and the United States of America officially provides security. Not that I need this, mind you. I do not ask for helicopters to fly around and protect me, but they will simply do it themselves, the security service itself.

不，等一下，看看，看看，看看。听我说，我是反对任何官僚主义的，我会尽量去除，但你知道，有些与安全有关的复杂情况。我做决定，然后行动，美国会正式提供安全保障。不是说我需要这个，别误会。我并没有要求直升机在上空盘旋来保护我，但安保部门会自己这样做。

They had to do it. I don't want it. And sometimes I don't need it. And I'm asking them. It was, for example, before the war, I think, yes, it was before the war. I just had a meeting. Yes, with President Trump. It was in 2019.

他们不得不这样做。我并不想要，有时我也不需要。我问过他们。那是在战争之前，我想是的，那是在战争之前。那时我刚开完一个会。是的，是和特朗普总统的一个会。那是在2019年。

I just wanted to go for a run early in the morning because I really wanted to exercise. And they, those tall bodyguards, a lot of them, they decided to join me, but I couldn't really do it because they were in suits. And I was in sports where I said, no, I can't. It's always funny. I'm not. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to disturb anybody. And cause anyone problems with me. And that's why if he will invite me, I will come. I thought he invited you.

我只是想在清晨去跑步，因为我真的很想锻炼。而他们，那些高大的保镖，有很多人决定和我一起去，但我实在无法做到，因为他们穿着西装，而我穿着运动服。我说不行，这太搞笑了。我不想打扰任何人，也不想给任何人带来麻烦。所以如果他邀请我，我会去。我以为他邀请你了。

Yeah. Yeah, I thought he publicly invited you. But okay, I hope to see you there. I think they had to. I mean, do some of their steps. I don't know. But. Step. Yeah. The stamp was missing. Yeah, but with pleasure with my wife, of course. And I think it's important. It's important.

好的。好的，我以为他公开邀请了你。不过没关系，我希望能在那见到你。我想他们不得不这样做。我的意思是，采取一些措施。我不太清楚。但是，步骤。是的，印章不见了。是的，不过当然我和我妻子非常乐意去。我认为这很重要。这很重要。

All right. Let's get back to a serious question. Sometimes they say it in America. This question of who is really in power. So let me ask you, is someone controlling you? For example, oligarchs, American politicians. Yeah, I'm up. I wanted to bring this up because I have been here in Ukraine since the twice since the invasion of 2022. And one of the things I've learned well is that actually nobody controls you.

好的，我们回到一个严肃的问题上。在美国，有时候人们会问，究竟是谁在掌权。那么让我问你，有人控制你吗？比如说，寡头，或者美国的政治家。我提起这个问题是因为自从2022年入侵以来，我已经两次来到乌克兰。我很好地了解到的一个事实是，实际上没有人控制你。

And this is one of your strengths as a president, as a person, that oligarchs and other rich and powerful people like that cannot control you. Can you explain why that is, how you see it? I think, and it is indeed true, that I'm generally difficult to deal with. I am an ambitious person. I can't submit to anyone. I can live by rules, by laws. I believe that this is the only thing that can control any person today. These are the rules and laws of the society or state where you live. And I believe that this is the most important thing.

翻译成中文：而这正是你作为一位总统、作为一个人的优势之一，寡头和其他富有而有权势的人无法控制你。你能解释一下这是为什么吗？我的看法是，这确实是事实，我通常很难相处。我是一个有野心的人，不能屈从于任何人。我可以遵守规则和法律。我相信这才是当今唯一能够控制人的东西。这些是你所在的社会或国家的规则和法律。我认为这是最重要的事情。

There's no person who could control me as I once told President Trump when we had a meeting, by the way, journalists asked if Trump influenced me during the phone call. I told him, I told the journalist the truth then, who can influence me? Only my boy, my son. This is a fact. When he calls asking for something, well, then I lift up my arms. Yes. And I cannot do anything about it because children are children. I have so little time with them.

没有人能够控制我，这就像我曾在一次会议中告诉特朗普总统一样。顺便说一下，当时有记者问我，特朗普在电话中是否影响了我。我告诉他，也告诉了记者真相，谁能影响我呢？只有我的孩子，我的儿子。这是事实。当他打电话来要什么东西的时候，我就会举手投降。是的，我对此无能为力，因为孩子就是孩子。我和他们在一起的时间太少了。

And therefore, when there are these moments, they are precious and important to me. I am ready to do anything. Also, probably my parents, they are an authority for me. Beyond that, I view it more as a system. No one can control the President. Therefore, we have oligarchs who either fled or are in prison because oligarchs usually control cash flows and people and influence politics. And we have concrete examples with sentences. They are not just under house arrest, not just that. There are some judgments under which their assets were frozen or sanctions were imposed. There are specific people who are behind bars. I think this is the answer regarding the influence. Would they like to influence me in the same way as any President of Ukraine because finance and cash flows always influence politics? Well, at least they want to do this. This is regarding the influence and other people on the vertical day perform tasks as my managers. Andri, you mentioned, is one of those managers. Well, I am glad that I have such people. Well, probably there is nothing else to add here. I will just say that your team that I spoke with is an excellent team, excellent people. Thank you. Okay. One last question. The future of Ukraine. If you look 5, 10, 20 years into the future, what can help Ukraine flourish economically, culturally, politically in the future?

因此，当有这样的时刻时，它们对我来说是珍贵且重要的。我愿意做任何事。此外，可能我的父母对我来说是一种权威。除此之外，我更把这看作一个系统。没有人能够控制总统。因此，我们有了一些要么逃亡、要么入狱的寡头，因为寡头通常控制着现金流、人脉并影响政治。我们有具体的例子和判决。他们不只是被软禁，不仅如此。他们的一些资产被冻结了或被实施了制裁。有具体的人被关在监狱里。我认为这是关于影响的答案。他们是否希望以同样的方式影响我，就像影响乌克兰的任何一位总统，因为金融和现金流总是影响政治？嗯，至少他们想这样做。这是关于影响的问题，至于其他人，在垂直领域，他们作为我的经理来执行任务。你提到的安德烈就是其中一个经理。嗯，我很高兴有这样的人。嗯，可能没有什么可以补充的了。我只想说，你的团队，我和他们交流过，是一个优秀的团队，优秀的人。谢谢。好的，最后一个问题。乌克兰的未来。如果展望未来5年、10年、20年，什么可以帮助乌克兰在经济、文化和政治上繁荣发展呢？

Digital. It's very important. Digitalization of all the process. We began this work. We have special ministry of digital transformation. Yeah. So this is very good. And we also have our DIA. This is the name for all of these services. Yeah. So I think that is the most important. This is again, this is not only convenient that will cancel all the any possibilities for future corruption because you don't have any, you know, you don't have any personal connections with people in the government or elsewhere. So you're just on your phone or any other device. That's it. And I think we are doing very well. We are the best in Europe. All of Europe recognizes it. Some countries of the African Union asked us to provide this the same service and we will do it after the war immediately. And I think that we can bring money to Ukraine from this. And I think what we also need. We need a tax reform. I think it will be very important for the businesses to return. A lot of support will come, I think, from USA business investment, not as direct aid to us, just to the private sector and resources. And I mentioned this to President Trump and to some European leaders who are our key strategic partners that will be happy, especially with the Americans will be happy to sign these contracts and engage in joint investments in many areas. And I think we can develop oil, gas, green energy, including solar power. And we already have the resources. We can invest money into this. We have oil reserves in the Black Sea that we can exploit and we need your expertise and the investment of your companies. We have gold and uranium reserves, the largest in Europe, by the way, which is also very important. For example, Russia has pushed France out of Africa. They urgently need uranium, which we have. So we are ready to open up for investments. And this will give us, of course, opportunities, jobs for people, revenue. I don't want cheap labor, honestly. What I truly want, especially after the war, to open up for those people who can really contribute and earn. Yes. Give a reason to the 8 million people to come back. Yes. It's so important. And they will come and we will recover and rebuild Ukraine. We will be very open to companies. And of course, we will welcome our people back. It's so important.

数字化是非常重要的，我们正在致力于将所有流程数字化。我们专门有一个数字化转型的部门，这是一件非常好的事情。我们还有一个叫DIA的服务来支持这些数字化的工作。我认为这是最重要的，因为它不仅便利，还能消除未来腐败的可能性，因为你不需要与政府或其他地方的人有任何个人联系，只需通过手机或其他设备就可以完成。我认为，我们在这方面做得非常好，是欧洲最出色的。整个欧洲都认可这一点，甚至有些非洲联盟的国家要求我们在战后立即为他们提供同样的服务。我相信这也能为乌克兰带来资金。我们还需要税制改革，这对企业回流非常重要。我认为，美国的商业投资将会为我们带来很多支持，不过这将是通过私营部门和资源，而不是直接的援助。我曾与特朗普总统和一些欧洲国家的领导人提到过，我们希望尤其能与美国签订合同，并进行多领域的联合投资。我们可以在石油、天然气、绿色能源（包括太阳能）等领域发展，并且我们已经有了相关的资源。我们可以在这上面投资，我们在黑海有石油储备可以开发，需要你们的专业知识和公司的投资。我们还拥有欧洲最大的金和铀储备，而这也是非常重要的资源。例如，俄罗斯已经把法国挤出了非洲，他们现在急需铀，而我们却有。所以，我们准备好开放投资，当然这也将为人民创造工作机会和收入。我不想要廉价的劳动力，特别是在战后，我真正想要的是吸引能真正做出贡献并有能力赚钱的人。我们要为800万人提供回归的理由，他们会回来，我们将重建乌克兰。我们会对公司非常开放，也将热情欢迎我们的人民回来，这非常重要。

Culturally. I think the most important thing is to remain open and not change our direction because culturally aligning with Russia. It's one idea while aligning with Europe is another. Our people have chosen Europe. It's their choice. It's our choice, the choice of our nation. And I think it's very important. First, you have to end the war. Yes, you're right. And we will. We want peace, you know? I mean, just to make it clear, we want peace. Just what I always say. You have to come to Ukraine and see for yourself. And people will tell you, no, we can't forgive those murderers who took our lives. But we still want to make peace. And honestly, I think that the highest approval rating of the President of the United States of Trump now is in Ukraine. People really believe that he can truly help bring peace. Now they have faith. Faith that he can make it happen, that he can support Ukraine and he can stop Putin. And that he will make sure Putin doesn't get everything he wants. This is very important. And it's why we believe that we must not lose this opportunity. I hope you find the path to peace. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming. Thank you for coming. Thank you for coming. Thank you for coming. Thank you for listening to this conversation with the President of Ukraine, Volatimir Zelensky. And now let me answer some questions and try to reflect on and articulate some things I've been thinking about. If you would like to submit questions, including in audio and video form, go to lexfereman.com slash AMA or to contact me for whatever other reason, go to lexfereman.com slash contact.

从文化上讲，我认为最重要的是保持开放，而不是因为文化上的原因就改变方向。比如，和俄罗斯对齐是一种想法，而与欧洲对齐是另一种。我们的人民选择了欧洲。这是他们的选择，也是我们的选择，是我们国家的选择。我认为这是非常重要的。首先，我们必须结束战争。是的，你说得对，我们会做到的。我们想要和平，明白吗？为了澄清这一点，我们想要和平。就像我一直说的，你需要亲自来乌克兰看看，人们会告诉你：不，我们无法原谅那些夺走我们生命的凶手。但我们仍然想实现和平。坦诚地说，我认为现在美国总统特朗普在乌克兰的支持率是最高的。人们真的相信他能真正帮助带来和平。如今，他们有信心—相信他可以实现这个目标，支持乌克兰，阻止普京。他会确保普京不能得到他想要的一切。这非常重要，这就是为什么我们相信我们不能错过这个机会。我希望你能找到通往和平的道路。谢谢，非常感谢。谢谢你的到来。感谢你的到来。感谢你的倾听，感谢你听了这次与乌克兰总统弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基的对话。现在让我回答一些问题，并试着反思和表达我一直在思考的一些事情。如果你想提交问题，包括音频和视频形式的，请访问 lexfereman.com/AMA 或者如有其他原因想联系我，请访问 lexfereman.com/contact。

First, I got a bunch of questions about this. So let me chat about the topic of language. And let's say the mechanics of multilingual conversation. Perhaps the details are interesting to some people. It also allows me to reflect back on the puzzle of it in this episode and what I can do better next time. I already explained in the intro the symbolic, historic and geopolitical complexity of the choice of language in the conversation with President Zelensky. As I said, the Russian language is one that the President speaks fluently and was his primary language for most of his life. I speak Russian fluently as well. It's the only common language we are both fluent in. So any other combination of languages required an interpreter, including when I spoke English. He did need an interpreter when I spoke English. And just like I was, was visibly encumbered and annoyed by the process of interpretation. This is why I tried to speak in Russian to the President instead of English so that he can directly understand me without an interpreter.

首先，我收到了很多关于这个问题的提问。因此让我来聊聊语言这个话题，以及多语言交流的机制。或许这些细节对某些人来说很有趣。这也让我能够在这一集中反思这个难题，并思考下次可以做得更好的地方。我在开头已经解释过，选择与泽连斯基总统对话的语言具有象征性、历史性和地缘政治的复杂性。正如我所说，俄语是总统讲得很流利的语言，也是他大半生的主要语言。我也能流利地讲俄语，这也是我们唯一都流利掌握的语言。因此，任何其他语言组合都需要一名翻译，包括我讲英语的时候。当我讲英语时，他确实需要翻译。而且我能看出来，他对翻译过程感到不便和烦恼。正因如此，我尽量用俄语与总统交流，而不是英语，以便他能够直接理解我的话，而不需要翻译。

I'm willing to take the hit for that as I am for everything else. I'm not trying to protect myself. I'm trying to do whatever is best for the conversation for understanding. Though it has been getting harder and harder to stay open, vulnerable and raw in public. While the swarms of chanting Internet mobs stop by with their torches and their color coded hats, flags, frogs, pronouns and hashtags. Anyway, there is a lot of nuanced aspects of the conversational language that I would like to explain here. I'll try to read brief. I can recommend a lot of books on this topic of language and communication that reveal just how amazing this technology of language is. For example, for a good overview, I recommend John McWhorter's books and especially his lecture series for the great courses on language. There are several. In the story of human language series, he gives a great discussion on spoken language versus written language. And that spoken language often relaxes the rules of communication. It uses shorter packets of words, loads in a bunch of subtle cues and meanings, all of which, like I'm trying to describe, are lost when there's an interpreter in the loop.

我愿意为此承担责任，就像我为其他事情负责一样。我不是在试图保护自己，而是想尽量为对话和理解创造更好的条件。然而，要在公众面前保持开放、脆弱和真实，变得越来越困难。尤其是在一群群齐声呐喊的网络暴民带着火把、颜色编码的帽子、旗帜、青蛙、代词和标签来袭之时。无论如何，对话语言中有许多细微差别，我想在这里解释一下。我会尽量简短。我可以推荐很多关于语言和沟通的书籍，以展示语言这种技术的奇妙之处。比如，作为一个很好的概述，我推荐约翰·麦克沃特（John McWhorter）的书，尤其是他在“伟大课程”系列中的语言讲座课程。在“人类语言的故事”系列中，他就口头语言与书面语言进行了精彩的讨论。而且口语往往会放松交流规则，使用更短的词语包，包含大量微妙的线索和意义，这些，正如我努力描述的，当有翻译介入时，往往都会丢失。

Let me also describe some relevant characteristics of my peculiar language abilities. In quotes, I was never good at speaking. I listen, think and understand better than I speak. For me, this is true for both English and Russian, but it is especially true for Russian. The Russian language allows for much more room for wit, non-standard terms of phrase, metaphors, humor, rhyme, musicality, and, let's say, deforming of words that create a lot of room for creativity and how meaning and emotion are conveyed. You can do the same in English, but it's harder. I actually find that Brits are sometimes very good at this. One of my favorite humans to talk to is Douglas Murray, sending the content of the conversation aside, the sheer linguistic brilliance and wit of dialogue with Douglas is a journey in itself.

让我描述一下我独特的语言能力的一些特征。可以说，我的口语一直不是很好。我倾听、思考和理解的能力要比表达更强。对我来说，这在英语和俄语中都是如此，但尤其是在俄语中。俄语有更多的空间可以发挥智慧，使用非标准的短语、隐喻、幽默、押韵、音乐性，还有所谓对词汇的变形，这些都为创造性表达和情感传递提供了很大的空间。在英语中你也可以做到这一点，但要困难一些。我发现英国人有时在这方面非常出色。我最喜欢交流的人之一是道格拉斯·穆雷，撇开谈话内容不谈，与道格拉斯对话的语言才华和机智本身就是一种享受。

I think Christopher Hitchens had the same, and many others, like I said, especially Brits. Anyway, I'm able to detect and understand a lot of dynamism and humor in the Russian language, but I'm slow to generate it. In part because I just don't practice. I have very few Russian-speaking friends. Funny enough, most of them are Ukrainian, but they speak with me and each other in Russian. But of course, as I mentioned, this is slowly changing due to the war. But I tried to speak to the president in Russian, so he would avoid needing an interpreter as much as possible.

我觉得克里斯托弗·希钦斯和很多其他人，尤其是英国人，也有类似的情况。不管怎样，我能够察觉和理解俄语中的很多机智和幽默，但我在用俄语表达时比较慢，部分原因是我没有太多练习机会。我几乎没有说俄语的朋友。有趣的是，我大多数说俄语的朋友是乌克兰人，但他们和我以及彼此交流都是用俄语。当然，正如我提到的，由于战争，这种情况正在慢慢改变。但是我试着用俄语和总统交流，以尽量避免需要翻译。

One of the things I want to improve for next time is to make sure I get very good equipment for interpretation and arrange for an interpreter I trust to be exceptionally good for the dynamism and the endurance of a three-hour conversation in the style that I tried to do. Just to give you some behind-the-scenes details of the experience, so equipment-wise, funny enough, it's not actually so trivial to set up wireless connections from us, the two people talking to the interpreter, and then back to us in a way that's super robust and has clean audio.

我下次想改进的一件事情是确保获得非常优良的翻译设备，并安排一位我信任且能力出众的翻译员，以便能胜任我尝试进行的这种风格的三小时对话，包含活力和耐力。给你一点幕后的细节说说，关于设备方面，实际上，从我们两人到翻译员，再回到我们这里，设置一个超级稳定并且音质清晰的无线连接，听上去简单其实并不容易。

The audio I had in my ear from the interpreter had a lot of background noise, so the whole time I'm hearing a shh sound with the voice of the interpreter coming in very quietly. What a wonderful experience. This whole life is, frankly. Plus, his translation was often incomplete, at least for me, so I had to put together those puzzle pieces continuously. But, again, it worked out, and hopefully our constant switching of languages and having a meta-discussion about language provide a good insights as to the complexity of this fight for our nation's identity and sovereignty that Ukraine has gone through.

我耳朵里听到的译员音频有很多背景噪音，所以一直听到“嘶嘶”声，译员的声音则很轻。真是一次奇妙的经历，说实话，这整个过程都是。况且，他的翻译对我来说常常不完整，所以我不得不不断拼凑那些信息碎片。不过，总算解决了，希望我们不断切换语言和进行语言的元对话，能够带来一些关于乌克兰为争取国家身份和主权所经历的复杂性的深刻见解。

Behind the scenes, off-mic, on a personal level, President Zelensky was funny, thoughtful, and just a kind-hearted person. And really, the whole team were just great people. It was an experience I'll never forget. After the conversation was recorded, the next challenge was to translate all of this and overdub it and do it super quickly. Like, these words I'm speaking now have to be translated and dubbed into Ukrainian and Russian. Eleven Labs were really helpful here, especially in bringing the President's voice to life in different languages.

在幕后，没有麦克风的情况下，从个人层面来看，泽连斯基总统是一个幽默、深思熟虑且心地善良的人。而且，整个团队的人都非常棒。这是一次让我永生难忘的经历。在对话录制完成后，下一个挑战就是在极短时间内将所有内容翻译并配音。就像我现在说的话，必须翻译成乌克兰语和俄语并进行配音。Eleven Labs在这方面提供了很大帮助，尤其是在用不同语言生动再现总统的声音。

But even more than that, they're just an amazing team who inspired me and everyone involved. Please go support Eleven Labs. They are a great company and great people. The translation is separate from the text of speech and was done in part by AI and a lot by human. This is where the fact that we had constant switching between three languages was a real challenge. So there are six transition mappings that have to be done. English to Ukrainian and Russian, Ukrainian to English and Russian, and then Russian to English in Ukrainian.

但最重要的是，他们是一个令人惊叹的团队，激励了我和所有参与的人。请去支持Eleven Labs。他们是一家出色的公司，有着优秀的团队。这次翻译是独立于演讲稿的，有部分是由AI完成的，但大部分是由人工完成的。我们在三种语言之间不断转换，这确实是一个很大的挑战。因此，需要进行六种转换映射：英语到乌克兰语和俄语，乌克兰语到英语和俄语，以及俄语到乌克兰语中的英语。

Continuously, sentence by sentence, sometimes word by word. And each combination of language to language translation is best done by a person who specializes in that kind of mapping. So it was all a beautiful mess, all of it. And on top of all that, great translation is super hard. For example, I've read and listened to a lot of the CFs game, both English and Russian, and studied the process of how these books are translated by various translators. You can spend a week discussing how to translate a single important sentence well.

不间断地，一句句地，有时候甚至是逐字地进行翻译。每一种语言之间的翻译组合最好由专门研究这种语言映射的专家来完成。因此，这一切都是一种美丽的混乱。而且除此之外，要做到优秀的翻译是非常困难的。例如，我阅读和听过大量CFs游戏的内容，包括英文和俄文，并研究了这些书籍如何被不同的译者翻译的过程。可能需要一周的时间来讨论如何恰当地翻译一个重要的句子。

Obviously, in this situation, we don't have weeks. We have hours for the whole thing. One of the things I regret is not putting enough time into the hiring and selecting great translators from Russian and Ukrainian to English, especially. I think translation is an art. So getting a good translator that works well with us is a process that needs more time and effort. I'll be doing that more this month. By the way, we have a small but amazing team. If you want to join us, go to lexphrima.com slash hiring.

在这种情况下，我们显然没有几周的时间。我们只有几个小时来完成整个事情。我感到遗憾的一件事是，之前没有投入足够的时间来聘请和挑选优秀的俄语和乌克兰语翻译，尤其是翻译成英语。我认为翻译是一门艺术。所以，找到一个能与我们良好合作的优秀翻译需要更多的时间和努力。我这个月会投入更多精力在这方面。顺便说一下，我们有一个小而出色的团队。如果你想加入我们，可以访问 lexphrima.com/hiring。

If you're passionate, work hard, and everyone on the team loves working with you, then we'll do some epic stuff together. We'd love to work with you. Like I said about 11 labs, there are a few things that are awesome in life as being able to work hard with an amazing team towards a mission all of us are passionate about. Anyway, I'll probably be doing a few more interviews in the Russian language. I do have a lingering goal of interviewing the mathematician Gagori Perlman, but there's also others. I will also work on improving my whole pipeline, both equipment-wise and interpreter-wise, in doing these conversations in other languages. Because there are many that I would like to do in languages that I don't speak at all, like Chinese, Mandarin, or Spanish, Arabic, Hindi, Portuguese, French, German. I see language as both a barrier for communication and a portal into understanding the spirit of a people connected by that language. It's all a weird and beautiful puzzle, and I'm just excited to get the chance to explore it.

如果你充满激情，努力工作，并且团队中的每个人都喜欢与你合作，那么我们将一起做一些令人惊叹的事情。我们很想与你合作。正如我谈到11个实验室所说，有一些事情在人生中非常美好，那就是能够与一个令人敬佩的团队一起为了我们都热爱的使命而努力工作。无论如何，我可能还会用俄语进行更多的采访。我有一个一直以来的目标，就是采访数学家格里戈里·佩雷尔曼，但还有其他人。我还将改进我整个流程中的设备和翻译部分，以便能够用其他语言进行这些对话。因为有很多对话我希望能够用我完全不懂的语言进行，比如中文（普通话）、西班牙语、阿拉伯语、印地语、葡萄牙语、法语、德语。我将语言视为一种沟通的障碍，同时也是理解一个被该语言所连接的民族精神的通道。这一切既奇妙又美丽，我很高兴能有机会去探索它。

Alright, I got a question on how I prepare for podcasts. So this has evolved and expanded more and more over time. There are some podcasts that I prepare hundreds of hours for. In AI terms, let's say, first I'm training a solid background model by consuming as much variety on the topic as possible. A lot of this comes down to picking high signal sources, or there's blogs, books, podcasts, YouTube videos, exacouns, and so on. For this conversation with President Zelensky, for example, since February 2022, I've spoken with hundreds of people on the ground. I've read Kindle or audiobook about 10 books fully, and then I skimmed about 20 more. And I don't mean books about Zelensky, although he does appear in some of them. I mean books where this conversation was fully in the back of my mind as I'm reading the book.

好的，我来回答一下关于我如何准备播客的问题。随着时间的推移，我的准备过程不断地发展和扩展。有些播客我会投入上百个小时来准备。用人工智能的术语来说，首先，我通过尽可能多地吸收这方面的各种信息，训练一个扎实的背景模型。这主要是挑选高质量的信息来源，比如博客、书籍、播客、YouTube视频、演讲等等。以这次与泽连斯基总统的对话为例，自2022年2月以来，我已经与数百名一线人员进行了交流。我完整阅读了约10本电子书或有声书，还快速浏览了大约20本。这里我指的不是关于泽连斯基的书，虽然他确实在其中一些书中出现过。我是指在阅读这些书时，始终将这次对话放在我的心里。

So for example, I read Red Famine by Anna Applebaum. It's about Haldimor. Does it directly relate to Zelensky? Not on the surface, no, but it sort of continues to weave the fabric of my understanding of people, of the history of the region. But it's really important for me to read books from various perspectives, and I'm always trying to calculate the bias under which the author operates, and adjusting for that in my brain as I integrate the information. For example, an Applebaum's book, Gulag, is very different from Alexander Solzhenitsyn's Gulag, or Gipelago. The former is a rigorous comprehensive historical account. The latter is a literary, psychological, and personal portrait of Soviet society. Both, I think, are extremely valuable. On the bias front, for example, the rise and fall of the Third Reich by William Shire is a good example. It is full of bias.

例如，我读了安娜·阿普尔鲍姆（Anna Applebaum）的《红色饥荒》。这本书讲的是关于霍尔多莫尔（Haldimor）的内容。它是否直接与泽连斯基有关？表面上看似没有，但它在某种程度上继续丰富了我对这个地区历史和人民的理解。不过，对我来说，从各种不同视角阅读书籍非常重要。我常常试图评估作者写作时的偏见，并在吸收信息时在脑海中进行调整。比如，阿普尔鲍姆的《古拉格》（Gulag）与亚历山大·索尔仁尼琴（Alexander Solzhenitsyn）的《古拉格群岛》非常不同。前者是一部严谨全面的历史记录，而后者则是对苏联社会的文学、心理及个人描绘。我认为这两本书都极其有价值。在偏见方面，以威廉·夏伊勒（William Shire）的《第三帝国的兴亡》为例，这是一本充满偏见的书。

But he was there, and to me, he has written probably one of the greatest, if not the greatest book on the Third Reich ever. But like I said, it has a lot of inaccuracies and biases. You can read about them online if you like. But my job, in this case, in all cases, is to adjust based on my understanding of the author's biases and take the wisdom from the text where it could be found, and putting the inaccuracies aside into the proverbial dustbins of history. So as I'm reading, I'm writing down my thoughts as they come up, always digging for some deeper insight about human nature. If I'm at my computer, I'll write it down in Google Doc, sometimes use Notion or Obsidian. If I'm not at my computer, I'll use Google Keep.

但是他确实在场，对我来说，他可能写了一本关于第三帝国最伟大的书之一，甚至是最伟大的书。不过就像我说的，这本书有很多不准确和偏见的地方。如果你愿意，可以上网查询了解。但在这种情况下，我的任务始终是根据我对作者偏见的理解进行调整，从文本中汲取智慧，并把不准确的部分放在历史的尘埃里。所以当我在阅读时，我会随时写下自己的想法，总是在探索对人性更深层次的洞察。如果我在电脑旁，我会写在Google文档中，有时用Notion或者Obsidian。如果不在电脑旁，我会用Google Keep。

So, for example, if I'm listening to an audiobook and I'm running along the river, if a good idea comes to mind, I'll stop, think for a few seconds, and then do speech-to-text note in the text. Note in Google Keep. By the way, listening to audiobook at 1x speed. Old school. And eventually, I get a gigantic pile of thoughts and notes that I look over to refresh my memory. But for the most part, I just throw them out. It's a background model building process. By the way, LLMs are increasingly becoming useful here for organization purposes, but have not yet been useful, at least for me, and I do try a lot. For insight extraction or insight generation purposes. I should mention that my memory for specific facts, names, days, quotes is terrible.

例如，当我在沿河跑步时听有声书，如果有了好主意，我会停下来，思考几秒钟，然后通过语音转文字做笔记，记在 Google Keep 上。顺便说一句，我听有声书时是用1倍速，挺传统的。最后，我会积累一大堆想法和笔记，拿出来看看以便刷新记忆。但大多数情况下，我只会把它们扔掉。这是一个在背景中建模的过程。顺便说一下，LLMs在整理方面越来越有用，但至少对我而言，至今还没能在提取或生成洞察方面提供帮助，尽管我确实尝试过很多。我还要提一下，我的记忆力对具体的事实、名字、日期和引用很差。

What I remember well is high-level ideas. That's just how my brain works for better or for worse. I realize that sometimes forgetting all of the details and the words needed to express them makes me sound simplistic and even unprepared. I'm not. But that's life. We have to accept our flaws and roll with them.

我记得清楚的是一些高层次的想法。这就是我的大脑运作的方式，不管是好是坏。我明白有时候忘记所有细节和表达它们所需的词语会让我显得简单甚至没有准备。其实不是这样的。但这就是生活。我们必须接受自己的缺点，并随之而行。

Aside from books, I also listen to a lot of podcasts and YouTube videos where people are talking about the topic. So for the President Zelensky episode, I listen probably to hundreds of hours of content from his supporters and from his critics, from all sides. Again, I choose who to listen to based not on their perspective, but based on SNR, signal-to-noise ratio. If I'm regularly getting insights from a person, I will continue listening to them, whether I agree or disagree.

除了读书之外，我还会听很多关于这个话题的播客和YouTube视频。因此，为了了解泽连斯基总统的那一期节目，我大概听了数百小时来自支持者和批评者的内容，涵盖各个方面。我选择聆听的对象不是基于他们的观点，而是基于信号与噪声比（SNR）。如果我从某人那里经常获得有价值的信息，我就会继续听，不论我是否同意他们的观点。

In the end, this turns out to be a lot of hours of prep, but to say that it's X hours per episode is not accurate because a lot of this preparation transfers from one guest to another, even when there's an insane level of variety in the guests. We're all humans, after all. There is a thread that connects all of it together. Somehow, if you look closely enough.

最终，这确实需要很多小时的准备工作，但若说每集需要X小时其实不太准确，因为很多准备工作可以从一个嘉宾转到另一个嘉宾，即使嘉宾之间有很大的不同。毕竟我们都是人，总有一些共同点将一切联系在一起。只要你足够仔细观察，就能发现这种联系。

For more technical guests in STEM fields, I'll read papers. A lot of papers. And also technical blog posts and technical tweet threads. This is a very different process. For AI or CS-related topics, I will run other people's code. I will write my own, implement stuff from scratch. If it's a software company, I'll use their tools and software if relevant.

对于在 STEM 领域内较为专业的嘉宾，我会阅读大量的论文，以及技术博客文章和相关推文。这是一个完全不同的过程。对于与 AI 或计算机科学相关的话题，我会运行他人的代码，并自己编写代码，从头开始实现一些功能。如果涉及到软件公司，我也会使用他们的工具和软件（如果有相关性的话）。

But in the actual conversation, I constantly am searching for simple but profound insights at various levels of abstraction. Sometimes this means asking a trivial question in hopes of uncovering the non-trivial, counterintuitive but fundamental idea that opens the door to a whole new way of looking at the field. And actually, every guest is their own puzzle.

在实际的对话中，我常常会在不同的抽象层次上寻找简单却深刻的见解。有时候，这意味着我会提一些看似琐碎的问题，希望能揭示出那些不显而易见、反常却又根本的理念，从而打开一种全新的视角来审视这个领域。而实际上，每位嘉宾都是一个独特的谜题。

Like preparing for Rick Rubin was me listening to hundreds of songs he produced and even learning someone guitar. Like Hurt by Janet Cash. Preparing for the cursor team episode meant, obviously, I had to use cursor fully for several weeks, all of its features. So I switched completely for VS Code to cursor. For Paul Rosley, round two, especially, I literally went deep into the jungle with Paul and almost died, fully taking the leap toward adventure with him.

"为了准备与里克·鲁宾合作，我听了他制作的几百首歌曲，甚至学了一些吉他的弹法，比如珍妮特·卡什的《Hurt》。准备游标团队的那一集显然意味着，我需要将游标的所有功能全面使用几个星期。所以我完全从VS Code转到了游标。至于与保罗·罗斯利的第二次合作，我真的和保罗一起深入丛林，几乎丧命，完全投身于这次冒险。"

When he gets close to the conversation, I'll start working on the actual interview questions and notes. And there I'm asking myself, what am I personally curious about? Like, I love podcasts. I'm a big fan of many, many podcasts. And so I ask myself, what would I want this person to explain on the podcast? And maybe what aspect of their thought process or their humanity would I want to be surfaced or have the chance to be surfaced?

当他接近谈话时，我会开始准备实际的采访问题和笔记。在这个过程中，我问自己，我个人对什么感兴趣？比如说，我喜欢播客。我是很多播客的超级粉丝。所以我问自己，我希望这个人在播客中解释什么？或者我想揭示他们思维过程或人性中的哪些方面？

In the actual conversation, I always try to put my ego aside completely and do whatever it takes to have a good conversation and serve the listener. This means asking questions simply trying to define terms and give context if needed, being open-minded, vulnerable, curious and challenging the guests when needed. Despite the claims on the internet, I do ask a lot of challenging questions, including follow-ups, but always with empathy.

在实际对话中，我总是尽量完全放下自我，尽一切努力来进行良好的交流，并服务于听众。这意味着我会提出问题，简单地定义术语，并在需要时提供背景信息，保持开放的心态，展现脆弱的一面，保持好奇，并在必要时挑战嘉宾。尽管网上有人说我不这样做，但我确实会提出很多具有挑战性的问题，包括后续提问，不过我总是带着同理心来进行这些提问。

I don't need to be right. I don't need to signal my moral or intellectual superiority to anyone. I try to do the opposite, actually, because I want the guests to open up, and I trust the intelligence of the listener to see for themselves if the guest is full of shit or not, to detect the flaws and the strengths of how the guest thinks or who they are deep down. A lot of times when interviewers grill the guest, it doesn't reveal much except give a dopamine hit to the echo chambers who hate the guest.

我不需要证明自己是对的，也不需要向任何人展示我在道德或智力上的优越。实际上，我尝试反其道而行，因为我希望嘉宾能够敞开心扉，我相信听众的智慧，他们可以自己判断嘉宾说的是真是假，看出嘉宾思维的优缺点或者他们内心深处是什么样的人。很多时候，当采访者对嘉宾穷追猛打时，这并不会揭示多少有价值的内容，只会让那些讨厌嘉宾的人感到兴奋。

As I said in the intro, I believe the line between good and evil does run through the heart of every man. The resulting conversation is sometimes a failure. Sometimes because there are too short, sometimes because the chemistry was just not working, sometimes because I fucked it up. I try to take risks, give it everything I got, and enjoy the roller coaster of it all, no matter what. And, as I said, I trust the listener to put it all together, and I trust the critic to tear it apart, and I love you all for it.

正如我在开头所说，我相信每个人心中都有善恶的界限。有时，由此产生的对话会失败。有时候是因为对话太短，有时候是因为没有默契，有时候是因为我搞砸了。但我总是尽量去冒险，全力以赴，享受这一切带来的起伏，无论结果如何。正如我所说，我信任听众能将所有内容整合在一起，我也信任评论者能对其进行剖析，并因此而爱你们所有人。

Alright, I got a bit of a fun question. It's a long one. So, Delian, cool name, wrote in saying he spotted me out in the wild and had a question about it. He wrote, I saw Lex working at the Detroit airport between flights. I hesitated and ultimately decided not to interrupt since he was in focus mode. True.

好的，我有一个有趣的问题。这是个比较长的问题。Delian（名字很酷）写信过来说，他在外面看到我，并对此有个问题。他写道，我在底特律机场转机时看到Lex在工作。我犹豫了一下，最终决定没有打扰，因为他当时很专注。没错。

Lex had his headphones earbuds on, listening to brown noise. Microsoft Surface propped up at eye level, Kinesis Advantage keyboard on the table. The use of Microsoft Windows is surprising. But it has been discussed in the past. True. The ergonomics of the setup Surface at eye level means that Lex cares about his health. But the anomalously large Kinesis Advantage keyboard seems like such a burden to lug around airports. I cannot help but ask. Why is it that Lex is going through the hassle to bring this absolutely large keyboard with him as carry on? It barely fits in a backpack. Carrying it around must be necessary for Lex for some reason. I love the puzzle of this that you're trying to think through this. The pain of lugging this tool around must be much smaller than the problem it solves for a question mark. What problem does this keyboard solve? What makes it necessary at the airport? Productivity, health, RSI? Good questions. Thank you, Delian. Great question. It made me smile. So, I thought I'd answer.

Lex戴着耳机，正在听褐噪音。微软Surface升到与眼睛同高的位置，桌上放着Kinesis Advantage键盘。用微软Windows倒是挺意外的，但以前也讨论过。确实，这种将Surface置于眼睛高度的设置显示Lex很在意自己的健康。然而，这个异常大的Kinesis Advantage键盘似乎在机场携带是个不小的负担。我忍不住想问，Lex为何要费劲把这个超大的键盘作为随身行李带着呢？它几乎放不进背包。带上这个键盘对Lex来说一定有某种必要。我喜欢你试图解开这个谜题的思考。相比解决它所带来的问题，携带这个工具的麻烦似乎要小得多。这个键盘解决了什么问题呢？在机场有何必要？是为了生产力、健康还是预防重复性劳损？这些都是好问题。谢谢你，Delian。真是个好问题，让我会心一笑，所以我想回答一下。

I remember that day. There was something else about that day aside from the keyboard that I miss. So, I am filled with a melancholic feeling that is appropriate for the holiday season. So, let me try to set the melancholic feeling aside, answer a question about my computer setup. When I'm traveling. So, whether I'm going to SF Boston, Austin, London, or the front in Ukraine, I am always bringing the Kinesis keyboard. I don't have RSI or any other health issues of that kind that I'm aware of. Even though I've been programming, playing guitar, doing all kinds of combat sports my whole life, all of which put my hands and fingers in a lot of precarious positions and situations. For that reason, and in general, ergonomics have never been a bit concerned for me. I can work on a crappy chair and a table, sleep on the floor. It's all great. I'm happy with all of it.

我记得那一天。除了键盘，我还怀念那天的其他东西。于是，我充满了一种适合节日的忧伤情感。不过，让我试着把这种忧伤放一放，回答一个关于我电脑配置的问题。当我旅行时，无论是去旧金山、波士顿、奥斯丁、伦敦，还是乌克兰前线，我都会带上Kinesis键盘。我没有因为编程或弹吉他等活动而产生的任何相关健康问题，即便这些活动让我常常需要用不太舒服的姿势使用我的手和手指。因此，我对人体工学并不太在意。我可以在破椅子和桌子上工作，睡在地板上。对我来说，这一切都很好，我对此感到很满意。

So, why Kinesis? Which, by the way, is right here. I had to think about it. Your question actually made me reflect. And I was hoping as I'm answering it, the truth will come off on many levels. So, it is true that I'm more productive with it. I can type and correct mistakes very fast compared to a regular keyboard, both in natural language typing and in programming. So, fast enough, I think, where it feels like I can think freely without the physical bottlenecks and constraints of fingers moving. The bit rate in New Orleans parlance is high enough for me to not feel like there is cognitive friction of any kind. But the real answer may be the deeper, more honest answer or something else. I've used the Kinesis keyboard for over 20 years. So, maybe it's like one of those love stories, where a guy and a girl love each other. And you try to quit because it doesn't quite work, but every time you leave, you ask yourself why. And then you realize that when you're together, your life is just full of simple joys. So, what's the point of leaving? What's the point of life if not to keep close to you the things that bring you joy, telly-en? Like this keyboard. It brings me joy. It's a bad metaphor over anthropomorphized, perhaps, but I never promised a good one. I'm like a cheap motel on a road trip. Low quality is part of the charm. I do have some good motel stories for another time. This does not feel like the appropriate time.

那么，为什么选择Kinesis？顺便说一下，它就在这里。我不得不考虑一下。你的问题让我反思。我希望在回答时，真相可以在多个层面上显现。确实如此，我在使用它时效率更高。相比于普通键盘，我可以更快地打字和纠正错误，无论是自然语言输入还是编程。所以，我觉得快到了一种可以自由思考的程度，没有手指运动的物理瓶颈和限制。用新奥尔良的说法，数据传输速度足够高，让我感觉不到任何形式的认知摩擦。但真正的答案可能是更深层次、更诚实的答案，或是其他原因。我使用Kinesis键盘已经超过20年了。可能这就像那些爱情故事，一个男孩和一个女孩爱着对方。你试图分开，因为关系并不总是那么完美，但是每次分开后，你都会问自己为什么。然后你意识到在一起时，生活充满了简单的快乐。那么，离开的意义在哪里呢？生活的意义不就是留住那些带给你快乐的事物吗？就像这个键盘，它带给我快乐。可能这是个不太恰当的拟人化比喻，但我从没承诺会给出完美的比喻。我就像一次公路旅行中的廉价汽车旅馆，低质量也是其中的一部分魅力。我确实有一些关于汽车旅馆的有趣故事，下次再分享。现在似乎不是合适的时机。

All that said to disagree with myself, I did use Emacs also for over 20 years. And in a single week, recently switched to VS Code. And then cursor. And never looked back. So, take my romantic nature with a grain of salt. So, yes, eventually I'll have to leave, but for now, you'll keep finding me on occasion in a random airport somewhere listening to brown noise, writing away the hours on this kinesis keyboard. Now, if you see me without it, maybe you'll give you the same danger of melancholy feeling I feel now, and looking back to that airport in Detroit. Anyway, more about my travel setup, if anyone's curious. I usually do travel with a Windows laptop, but I am mostly using Linux on it through WSL, Windows Self System for Linux. And in some case, some dual booting. Linux and Windows. I also need to be able to video edit, so on longer trips, I usually have a bigger laptop with a bigger screen, lots of memory, good CPU, good GPU. All of that helps with video editing on Adobe Premiere. In general, I'm extremely minimalist, except for the few, let's call them sentimental things. Like all my podcast recording equipment fits into a small suitcase. I try to keep it as simple as possible. Thank you for the question. And see you at the next airport.

尽管我之前已经否定了自己的看法，但我确实用了超过20年的Emacs。而就在最近的一周，我切换到了VS Code，然后又换到了Cursor，再也没回头。所以，请对我浪漫的本性持保留态度。是的，最终我会离开，但现在你还是能偶尔在随机的机场看到我，听着棕色噪音，用Kinesis键盘敲击着文字。如果你看到我没有了这些东西，你可能会感到和我一样的忧伤，那种我在回忆底特律机场时的感觉。无论如何，如果有人好奇，我会讲更多关于我的旅行装备。我通常带着一台Windows笔记本旅行，但我主要通过WSL（Windows Linux子系统）在上面使用Linux。在某些情况下，我会双启动Linux和Windows。我也需要能够进行视频编辑，所以在较长的旅途中，我通常会带一台屏幕更大、内存更多、CPU和GPU都很好的大笔记本电脑，这些都有助于在Adobe Premiere上进行视频编辑。总体来说，我非常简约，除了那些可以称为“有情感意义的东西”。比如，我的所有播客录音设备都可以放进一个小手提箱。我尽量保持简单。感谢你的提问。我们下次机场见。

Alright, I think it's time to bring things still close. I'd like to give a big thanks to you for giving me your time and your support over the years. It means the world. If you want to get in touch with me, go to lexroom.com slash contact. There you can get feedback, ask questions, request guests for the podcast, or submit the Coffee with Lex form if you just want to chat with me over a cup of coffee.

好的，我觉得是时候画上一个句号了。我想真诚地感谢你多年来给予我的时间和支持。这对我意义重大。如果你想联系我，可以访问 lexroom.com/contact。在那里你可以提供反馈、提出问题、推荐播客的嘉宾，或者如果你只是想和我喝杯咖啡聊聊天，也可以提交 Coffee with Lex 表单。

I'll be traveling across the world a bunch this year from Europe to South America and more, so it would be cool to do some small meetups and meet some interesting people. This has been a journey of a lifetime. Thank you for everything. On to the next adventure. I love you all. Thank you.

今年我将会在世界各地旅行，从欧洲到南美等地。如果能举行一些小型聚会，认识一些有趣的人，那就太好了。这次旅行是我人生的一段奇妙旅程。感谢大家的一切。期待下一个冒险。我爱你们所有人。谢谢。