Why auto loan fraud is rising | Frank McKenna, Chief Fraud Strategist, Point Predictive
发布时间 2023-10-03 10:16:19 来源
摘要
In this episode, I’m speaking with Frank McKenna, Co-Founder and Chief Fraud Strategist at Point Predictive.
You can access Point Predictive’s free Auto Lending Fraud Report here: https://landing.pointpredictive.com/cdg
00:00 - Intro
01:15 - Frank’s background & Why Point Predictive exists
05:55 - The massive scale and spectrum of fraud
12:15 - Keeping up with evolving fraud methods
26:35 - Are independent dealers riskier than franchise dealers?
37:33 - Preventing losses and making money
43:07 - How COVID enabled a new cohort of fraudsters
45:35 - Wrapping up
Follow Frank on X @frankonfraud (https://x.com/frankonfraud) and on LinkedIn. (https://www.linkedin.com/in/frankmckenna)
Check out the website for more (https://dealershipguy.com) and follow me on X @GuyDealership! (https://x.com/guydealership)
Interested in advertising with CarDealershipGuy? Drop us a line here: https://cdgpartner.com
This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions.
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People wonder why frauds up so much and it all started during the pandemic. We actually just searched for PPP loans. We want to say, did those people that bought a car with the synthetic identity actually ever try to get a PPP loan? And 76% of the people that wanted to deal with ships to get a car with the synthetic identity last year had gotten a PPP loan the prior year. That was a very strong correlation.
人们想知道为什么欺诈案件在疫情期间如此猖獗，而一切都始于这场大流行。实际上，我们只是搜索了一下PPP贷款（Paycheck Protection Program）。我们想问一下，那些用合成身份购买汽车的人是否有尝试申请过PPP贷款？去年有76%表达了通过欺诈手段来购车的人，在前一年申请了PPP贷款。这是一个非常强烈的相关性。
What's up everyone? This is Car D'Yolishib Guy. You're listening to the Car D'Yolishib Guy podcast, which is my effort to give you access to the most unbiased and transparent insights into the car market. Let's get into today's episode.
大家好，这里是Car D'Yolishib Guy。欢迎收听Car D'Yolishib Guy的播客节目，我希望通过这个节目为大家提供最客观透明的汽车市场见解。让我们开始今天的节目。
Frank McKenna is Chief Fraud Strategist at Point Predictive, a tech company providing AI-based risk management solutions for lending markets. In this conversation, we discussed why auto loan fraud schemes are increasing at a record pace, the riskiest types of dealerships in the market, the fastest rising types of fraud, credit repair scams and the rise of fake pay stubs, the impact of digital retailing on mitigating fraud and opportunities to capitalize on all this inefficiency. This was a fascinating conversation unlike any others that I've had before on the podcast. I want to also note that Frank was kind enough to share Point Predictive's free fraud insights with our audience. If you're interested in learning more, you can visit the link in the show notes below.
弗兰克·麦肯纳是Point Predictive的首席欺诈策略师，该公司提供基于人工智能的风险管理解决方案，专门应用于贷款市场。在这次访谈中，我们讨论了为什么汽车贷款欺诈计划正在以空前的速度增长，市场上最危险的经销商类型，欺诈最快增长的类型，信用修复骗局以及虚假工资单的兴起，数字零售对减少欺诈的影响以及利用这种低效率所带来的机会。这次访谈非常有趣，不同于我之前在播客中进行的任何访谈。值得一提的是，弗兰克很慷慨地与我们的听众分享了Point Predictive提供的免费欺诈洞察力。如果您有兴趣了解更多信息，可以在下面的节目说明中访问链接。
All right, let's get into the episode.
好的，让我们开始进入这一集内容吧。
Alright, we got Frank McKenna on the CDG podcast. Frank, welcome. Hey, thank you. It's great to be here today. Thanks for coming on Frank. I want to go right to the chase. The first thing that struck out at me about you, your company, which I found very interesting was your title. I haven't heard this before. Can you just tell me about this chief fraud strategist?
好的，我们在CDG播客上有Frank McKenna。Frank，欢迎。嘿，谢谢。很高兴今天能来这里。感谢你的参加，Frank。我想直接切入重点。让我印象深刻的第一件事是你和你的公司，我觉得非常有趣的是你的职位。我以前没有听说过这个。你可以告诉我一下关于这个首席欺诈战略师的工作吗？
One quick thing before you start with that though, I want to kind of give some background. Yeah, right now with everything going on in the industry, all the consumers with negative equity, that's piling all right. People owing on cars more than it's worth, plus insurance rates at all-time highs. I've just been seeing getting a lot of murmurs about fraud and. Yeah. Just stuff, dealers, job sending me DMs, people asking me questions. So I think it's just a very dynamic time right now to be in anything related to fraud, which is why I thought this was going to be such an interesting conversation. But anyways, that's the context why I'm really intrigued about what's happening at that side of the world. So anyways, I'll just jump in.
在你开始之前，有件事我想给你一些背景信息。是的，目前行业内发生的一切，消费者的负债累加。人们对车辆的欠款超过其价值，再加上保险费率达到历史最高点。我只是一直听到关于欺诈的低语。是的，仅仅是一些有关经销商的事情，他们向我发送DM（直接消息），人们向我提问。因此，我认为现在与欺诈有关的任何事情都是非常动态的，这也是为什么我认为这将是一场非常有趣的对话。但无论如何，这就是为什么我对发生在那个领域的事情非常着迷的背景。那么，我就开始吧。
Yeah, it is. I've been in anti-fraud management to see about 30 years. So I started back in 1990. My title is chief fraud strategist. I'm probably the only one in the world maybe that has that title. So it's not unusual that what the heck is that it's my background really. Fraud is moving. It's changing every single day. There's something happening out there. Fraudsters are coming up with new schemes. So my role is really to figure out what's happening in the industry, what these dealers and these lenders are getting hit with. Use our artificial intelligence and all the data that we have here to try to build strategies to help them counteract it. So it's really a proactive type of role to try to help the industry attack fraud.
是的，确实如此。我从事反欺诈管理已经有大约30年了。所以我是从1990年开始的。我的职称是首席欺诈策略师。可能全世界只有我拥有这个职称。所以这并不奇怪，这是我的背景。欺诈活动在变化，每天都有新情况出现。欺诈者不断设计新的计划。所以我的角色真正是了解行业中发生了什么，这些经销商和贷款人遭受了什么打击。利用我们拥有的人工智能和数据，努力制定策略来帮助他们应对。所以这实际上是一种积极主动的角色，旨在帮助行业打击欺诈活动。
So how did you get to this point? I mean, I can only imagine you did it graduate college and tell yourself, I want to go be a fraud detector to go ahead. And I say that, I'm curious to know what's the career path here? I had no idea.
那么你是怎么走到这一步的呢？我的意思是，我可以想象你是通过大学毕业然后告诉自己，我想要成为一个欺诈检测员，然后就继续前进了。而我说这个，是因为我很好奇职业发展路径是怎样的？我一点都不知道。
Yeah, it started, like maybe a lot of people fall into their job. I really did. My work, I ran out of college. I got a really terrible job as a customer service agent at a bank. Answering phone calls, my shift was from 5 a.m. to 1 p.m. Answering calls from people that just were yelling at me all day. And one day I got a call and it was a fraud. It was somebody trying to perpetrate a fraud against a customer's account. And I stood up to the manager. I said, what should I do with this? It's a fraud in progress. This person's trying to steal their car. They said, transfer to the fraud department. And I was like, wow, we have a fraud department. And I was intrigued. Eventually a role opened up there and I applied for it and I got the role. So it was really just by chance and by a stroke of luck that I kind of fell into it. It wasn't a career plan. But once you, like, you know this, right? When you find a fraud, it really kind of makes a hair stand up on the back of your neck and you really get pretty excited about it. That was the way I felt and I never wanted to do anything else.
是的，它开始了，许多人也许都陷入了他们的工作中。我也真是如此。我毕业后，就开始了工作。我在一家银行得到了一份非常糟糕的工作，做客服代理人。每天早上5点到下午1点我要接听电话。接听那些整天对我尖叫的人的电话。有一天，我接到了一个电话，涉及到欺诈。有人试图对一位客户的账户进行欺诈。我站出来向经理请教，问应该怎么办。现在有人正在实施欺诈。这个人试图窃取他们的车。他们说，将电话转接到欺诈部门。我当时真的很惊讶，原来我们有一个欺诈部门。我对此感到兴奋。后来，那里有一个职位空缺，我申请了并得到了那个职位。所以，我可以说这只是碰巧和幸运让我走进了这个行业，而不是一个事业计划。但你也知道，当你发现一个欺诈行为时，你会感到脖子后面的毛发竖起来，你真的会对此感到非常兴奋。我也是这种感觉，我从来没有想过做其他事情。
Yeah, look, any dealer that, especially dealers that work in subprime, they all have these like fake pay stub collections. It's pretty crazy. Whoever's listening that isn't in the business or isn't a dealer, yes, it's true. You know, it's like there's tons of fake pay stubs, which is I think one of the most common types of fraud in this business goes without saying every dealer runs into that at some point, whether, you know, just subprime or not. It's every deal runs into it.
是的，看，任何经销商，特别是次贷经销商，他们都有这些假工资证明集合。非常疯狂。对于那些不在这个行业或不是经销商的人来说，是的，这是真的。你知道的，有很多假工资证明，我认为这是这个行业中最常见的一种欺诈类型，毫无疑问，每个经销商都会遇到这种情况，无论是次贷经销商还是其他类型的经销商，每个交易都会遇到这种情况。
So we're going to get into a lot here. Like what's happening in the market right now? Wiser, you know, increase in fraud, at least from my perspective, what I've been seeing and I'm sure, you know, you're going to add a lot more. Also, how does it backs consumers, right? Consumer consumers shop. There's a lot to discuss here.
所以我们会讨论很多内容。像现在市场上正在发生什么？越来越聪明，你知道，至少从我的角度来看，欺诈行为在增加，我相信你也会有更多的见解。而且，这与消费者有何关联呢？消费者购物。这里有很多要讨论的内容。
Before we get into that, can you tell us about your current company, point predictive leading up to this point, like, why did you start this company? What's the purpose of the company?
在我们深入讨论之前，你能告诉我们关于你目前的公司"point predictive"的情况吗？比如，你为什么创办了这家公司？公司的目标是什么？
Yeah, point predictive, we started it back in 2017. So the really, the genesis of the company was we felt there was a big gap. Auto lenders and dealers, if you think about the industry, there's, you know, thousands of lenders out there that are loaning money and there's tens and thousands of dealers that are selling cars and trying to find financing. And there's a lot of holes and gaps that the fraudsters can slip through, because if they get discovered at one dealer, they can just go down the street and hit another. And what we thought is we want to fill the gap with that consortium.
是的，点预测，我们从2017年开始。所以公司的起源是我们觉得存在一个巨大的鸿沟。汽车贷款人和经销商，如果你想想这个行业，有成千上万的贷款人借钱，以及成千上万的经销商在销售汽车并寻找融资。而且存在很多摩擦和漏洞，欺诈分子可以从中逃脱，因为如果他们在一个经销商那里被发现，他们可以直接去街区的另一个经销商那里找到机会。我们的想法是要通过那个联盟来填补这个漏洞。
So what a consortium is, is basically a pooling of all the data in the industry into a central repository so that if we see a fraud, like a person walk into a dealership and use a stolen identity, if we see that person, again, we can notify that dealer and that lender that we've seen them. And that's a potential fraud. So we really tried to fill the gap with the database that can target fraud centrally so that these play, these bad actors can't go from lender to lender dealer to dealer perpetuating these frauds.
所以，联合体基本上是将整个行业的所有数据汇集到一个中央数据库中，这样如果我们发现诈骗行为，比如一个人使用盗窃的身份进入汽车经销商店，如果我们再次看到这个人，我们可以通知经销商和贷款人我们已经见过他们了。而这是一种潜在的诈骗行为。因此，我们真的在填补一个能够集中打击诈骗的数据库的空白，这样这些不良分子就无法从一个贷款人或经销商到另一个贷款人或经销商进行持续的诈骗行为。
How big is this problem in the country right now? Like just numbers wise, can you excise that up?
目前这个问题在这个国家有多大规模？就数字方面来说，你能精确说明一下吗？
Yeah, it's massive. So like this year, we expect over $8 billion in fraud. That's funded fraud. That means that these loans were booked and they had evidence of identity theft, synthetic identity, income misrepresentation, employment fraud. There's a whole gamut of schemes and scams, but it's over $8 billion a year problem just in losses alone.
是的，这个问题非常严重。就像今年一样，我们预计有超过80亿美元的欺诈行为。这是资助的欺诈行为。这意味着这些贷款已经被登记，而且证据显示存在身份盗窃、合成身份、收入虚报、就业欺诈等问题。虽然存在各种阴谋和骗局，但仅仅损失就已经超过每年80亿美元了。
What are the most, like what are the fastest growing types of fraud that you're seeing in the country right now?
你目前在国内看到的最快增长的欺诈类型是什么？
Right now, it's synthetic identity. Have you heard this term? Well, I'm going to assume like sort of like a version of identity theft. That's my assumption.
现在, 是合成身份。你听说过这个词吗？我会假设它是身份盗窃的一种形式。这是我的假设。
It's a version of identity theft. It's basically, it's a limitless fraud. And the reason I say that is because you can take any identity, you can steal a Social Security number, you can use a name and address like a mailboxes, etc. You can get a Google voice. You can basically apply with that kind of hodgepodge of information and create a completely fabricated identity. That fabricated identity doesn't tie back to a victim. So you can walk into a dealership, use one of these fabricated identities called synthetic identities, buy a car, and they can't find you once you buy that car. That's the fastest growing fraud right now.
这是一种身份盗窃的变种。基本上，这是一种无限制的欺诈行为。我之所以这么说，是因为你可以冒用任何身份，可以盗取社会保障号码，可以使用一个名称和地址，比如邮箱等。你可以获得一个谷歌语音号码。你基本上可以使用这种混合信息进行申请，创造一个完全虚构的身份。这个虚构的身份不会与任何受害者相关联。所以你可以走进一家汽车经销商，使用其中一个叫做合成身份的虚构身份购买一辆汽车，而他们在你购买车辆后无法找到你。这是目前增长最快的欺诈行为。
What do they do with social? What do they do with the social security number? Social security number.
他们用社交媒体做什么？他们用社会保障号码做什么？社会保障号码。
So there's a big scheme and actually some dealerships get involved with this. It's called CPNs. I don't know if you ever heard this term. It means credit privacy number. Consumers are being sold these credit privacy numbers under the guise that it's protecting their privacy. But what they're being sold by by these credit repair companies is a social, is a stolen social security number. So they buy these, they think they're again, they're using a CPN. They're just using a stolen social security number. And they're providing all of their information according to what the credit repair company tells them to do. And what they're actually doing is creating this fictitious identity. And a lot of times they're getting arrested for it because they've used this stolen social security number.
所以有一个大的计划，实际上一些汽车经销商也参与其中。这被称为CPNs，不知道你有没有听过这个词。它指的是信用隐私号码。消费者以保护他们的隐私的借口购买这些信用隐私号码。但是这些信用修复公司出售给他们的实际上是一张被盗的社会保障号码。所以他们购买这些号码时认为自己在使用CPN，实际上却是在使用被盗的社会保障号码。根据信用修复公司的指示，他们提供所有的个人信息。实际上他们正在创造一个虚构的身份。很多时候，他们因为使用了这个被盗的社会保障号码而被逮捕。
Is there like specific regions in the country where we're seeing this happen the most? Houston, Texas. Is the number one hotspot for synthetic identity? Houston, Texas. Yeah, you said that. What's specific about Houston? What's specific about Houston? I think the fraud, what tends to happen here in the US is you have fraud rings that get really good at a specific type of fraud. And in Houston, there's a lot of the synthetic people that know to commit this synthetic identity. And they tend to just gravitate towards that city and hit the dealerships.
在这个国家中，我们是否可以看到特定的地区最容易发生这种情况？ 是的，休斯顿，德克萨斯州是合成身份的首要热点。 休斯顿，德克萨斯州。是的，你说过了。休斯顿有什么特别之处？休斯顿有什么特别之处？我认为在美国，通常会出现一种情况，即欺诈团伙非常擅长一种特定类型的欺诈。在休斯顿，有很多懂得如何实施合成身份欺诈的人，并且他们倾向于聚集在这个城市，并对汽车经销商进行攻击。
Wow. Because they've been successful. Other cities Detroit, Miami, Los Angeles, San Diego. I mean, it's all over, but Houston is the number one, I'd say, is this mainly concentrated in like self-prime consumers or is this all over the map with prime as well? What are you seeing this with? It's kind of trying to think like what's motivating somewhat to go down this path, right? Is it like not being able to get approved for a loan, not having the income? Like what's the driver? There's two, there's two motivations. So it's a really good question because there's really two motivations. You got the people that have really bad credit that can't get a car. And they get kind of led down this slippery slope using a CPN or a social security. And we create a new credit profile that looks good so they can buy the car. Those are kind of well-intentioned people that just want the car. But at the end of the day, they really can't afford the cars they're getting into because they're overextending themselves. So you have that kind of, I call that fraud for car. And that's probably more skewed to like a subprime borrower. And I would say there that like probably the root cause, again, just one element at least is like affordability crisis, right? Like cars are so unaffordable on a relative basis that people are trying to do these creative things to get into transportation. And in theory, right? If you're able to have more affordable cars, which again, is a big theory, then you could probably mitigate a lot of that fraud at least. So at least for the first one that you mentioned. I think you're right. So I think you're absolutely right about that.
哇，因为他们取得了成功。底特律、迈阿密、洛杉矶、圣地亚哥等其他城市也存在这种情况。我的意思是，这种情况到处都有，但休斯顿是首屈一指的。我想说的是，这主要集中在自救型消费者身上，还是广泛应用于优质消费者身上？你在这方面有什么看法？我想试着思考一下是什么促使某些人选择这条路，对吗？是因为无法获得贷款批准，没有收入吗？驱动力是什么？有两个，确实是个很好的问题，因为确实有两个动机。你有一些信用非常差，无法买车的人。他们通过使用CPN或社会保障号码，沿着这条滑坡前进，创建了一个看起来不错的新信用档案，以便能够购买汽车。这些人基本上都是怀着善意，只是想要一辆汽车。但到最后，他们真的负担不起他们所买的车，因为他们过于超支了。所以你可以把这称之为"以车为幌子的欺诈行为"，这可能更多地发生在次贷借款人身上。至少在这种情况下，我认为根本原因可能是支付能力危机，对吧？相对来说，汽车太过昂贵，所以人们正在尝试各种创造性的方法来解决交通问题。理论上来说，如果能有更多经济实惠的汽车（当然这是一个很大的理论），那么至少可以减轻很多欺诈行为的发生。至少对于你提到的第一个动机而言，我认为你是对的。我认为你说得没错。
I think there's another driving force. And it's the development of all these credit repair companies that have sprouted up since COVID where people are working out of their house selling credit repair services. They're kind of shame you. What do these actually do? Like these things like pop up on like Facebook and stuff like, what are these companies that actually do? Are these things real? What is this?
我认为还有另一个驱动力。而且这就是自 COVID-19 疫情开始以来涌现的所有信用修复公司的发展，这些公司是由人们在家办公销售信用修复服务的。它们有点无耻地诱骗你。这些公司实际上是做什么的？就像这些在 Facebook 上弹出的东西之类的，这些公司实际上是做些什么？这些东西是真实的吗？这是什么？
These companies, they're not even companies. They're people that learn how to commit these kind of sophisticated frauds like synthetic identity credit washing. I don't know if you ever heard of that, but this where you can wipe out all of your negative credit by claiming identity theft. So they offer services like that. They sell primary trade lines. This is crazy what they're doing with primary trade lines right now, but they're selling these fake trade lines to people. What they're doing is just selling these services. They're often charging anywhere from like 80 dollars to a thousand dollars to these people. And they're basically repairing their credit in a real shady way. So they're giving them new identities. They're putting a bunch of fake trade lines on their credit bureau. They're having them walk into dealerships and buy cars. So these credit repair companies are sprouting up everywhere. That's why you're getting all these ads. But that's a driving force behind all this synthetic identity and fake identity usage in dealers and lenders. Got it.
这些公司，其实它们并不像是真正的公司，而更像是学会如何进行高级欺诈行为的人。比如，合成身份信用清洗，我不知道你是否听说过这个，但这是指通过声称身份盗窃来清除所有负面信用记录。所以他们提供这样的服务。他们出售主要交易记录。他们目前所做的与主要交易记录有关的事情真是太疯狂了，他们向人们出售虚假交易记录。他们所做的只是销售这些服务。他们通常向客户收取从80美元到1000美元不等的费用。而他们基本上是以一种不光彩的方式修复他们的信用记录。所以他们为客户提供新的身份，将大量虚假的交易记录添加到他们的信用档案中，然后让他们走进经销商购买车辆。因此，信用修复公司如雨后春笋般涌现。这就是为什么你会看到那么多广告的原因。但这是造成人们滥用合成身份和虚假身份的一个推动力量。明白了。
So you're saying these things are not legit and that's also just amplifying this entire fraud issue that's kind of the industry is dealing with. It's amplifying it, right? And it's not just limited to subprime, by the way. I know we talked about fraud for car, but there's a whole bunch of fraudsters that want to actually make a profit. So they want to use a synthetic identity, walk into a dealership, buy a high-end car, put it on a shipping container, send it overseas, and sell it for enormous profit. Like a Range Rover, for example, you can finance one of those with synthetic identity, pay 5,000 to put it on a shipping container and sell it for $200,000 to $250,000 in China or Vietnam. So there's a whole black market there for these cars. So these synthetic identities are being used in that way as well, not just for people that want cars, but actually professional fraudsters. Wow. I haven't heard about that. It's very under discount. I mean, I've heard about exporting cars like that, but using the synthetic identity, that's a new one.
所以你是说这些东西都不合法，这实际上也在放大整个诈骗问题，这是行业正在应对的问题。是在放大，对吧？而且这不仅仅局限于次贷款。我知道我们之前谈过汽车欺诈，但还有一大批希望赚取利润的欺诈者。所以，他们想要使用合成身份，走进一家经销商，购买一辆高端汽车，放在航运集装箱中，运往海外，并以巨额利润出售。比如，路虎，你可以用合成身份贷款购买其中之一，支付5,000美元将其放在航运集装箱中，并以200,000至250,000美元的价格在中国或越南出售。所以在这个市场上存在整个黑市。这些合成身份也被专业的欺诈者使用，不仅仅是那些想要购车的人。哇，我还没听说过这个。这真的很不明显。我是说，我听说过像那样出口车辆，但使用合成身份，这是新的。
So what are you seeing right now other than synthetic fraud? Like what are other rising forms of fraud? And I know I specifically mentioned you their email prior to its podcast, auto insurance, and just consumer struggling to get that. But are you seeing anything else on that side of the realm? Yeah, auto insurance, that's an issue when I live here in San Diego. And we have a big problem with that, where people get underwater in their loans and they take their cars down into Tijuana or Mexico and ditch them there and you know, claim their car was stolen. That happens all the time. So that's a type of fraud. I think that you had brought up. We definitely see that.
除了合成诈骗，你现在还看到了什么其他形式的欺诈？我知道我在之前的播客中特别提到了电子邮件、汽车保险以及消费者努力获取它们。但是你在这一领域还看到了其他什么问题吗？是的，在我生活的圣地亚哥，汽车保险是一个问题。我们在这方面存在很大问题，人们贷款后车辆贬值，然后将车辆带到提华纳或墨西哥然后弃车，声称车辆被盗。这种情况时有发生，是一种欺诈行为，正如你提到的。我们确实见到了这种情况。
But other types of fraud that are really rising, there's a scheme that we've seen in the last six months called Zombie Debt reassignment. And what this is is people are buying zombie deaths. These are deaths that have kind of fallen off credit reports. They're repackaging them and putting them on. They're selling them to consumers. And these are showing up as primary trade lines on people's credit bureaus. These can be for high end autos. So you can get a subprime bar where and you can see that they have a BMD, you know, $80,000, $90,000 BMW that they just paid off. It's all fake. It's called Zombie Debt reassignment. We're seeing how is that actually happening? Like how are none of the credit bureaus catching on to that? They it's so new. It's just started six months ago. And you can go on YouTube and you can see all these videos on the data. How do you know about it? How do you guys know about it? I research it just through YouTube videos. I what I do in the week is I look for fraud that people are talking about. And this is something that all the frauds are talking about. You keep your ear to the ground. You're just like, what's new? What's that's amazing. And so I usually I find out about this stuff before, you know, the credit bureaus do because I saw I'm looking for it all the time.
但是其他类型的诈骗确实正在增加，最近六个月我们见过一种被称为僵尸债务重新分配的骗局。这是人们购买僵尸债务的行为。这些债务已经从信用报告中消失了，他们重新打包并将其出售给消费者。这些债务会显示为人们信用报告中的主要贸易线。这些也可以是高端汽车的债务。所以你可能会看到他们有一辆完全付清的80,000美元或90,000美元的宝马车。但这都是假的，这就是所谓的僵尸债务重新分配。我们不明白这是怎么发生的？为什么信用机构没有发现这个问题？因为这个骗局很新，才刚刚兴起了六个月。你可以在YouTube上找到很多关于这个数据的视频。你是怎么知道这些的？你们怎么知道这些？我是通过YouTube视频进行的研究。每周我都在寻找人们谈论的各种诈骗。这是所有骗局中都在讨论的一个问题。我一直保持关注，时刻关注新鲜事物。所以通常我会在信用机构知道之前了解到这些问题，因为我一直在寻找。
Another one. But but but that's a great that you made a really good point there, which is like use these things sprout in like the most mainstream play like you go on Facebook right now, you can find like a cars for sale with no titles. Like you can find all these things in the most mainstream open public arenas.
再来一个。但但但是你提到的那一点非常好，就是这些东西在像最主流的玩法里也会出现，比如你现在上Facebook，就能找到没有产权证书的汽车出售信息。像这样的东西在最主流的公共领域里随处可见。
Yeah, you just have to look for them and being, you know, just naturally curious about it. And then you can do the more more sophisticated digging in. But that's a great point.
是的，你只需要去寻找它们，并且对此保持自然的好奇心。然后你可以进行更加深入的挖掘。但这是一个很好的观点。
Yeah, that's I mean, I'm constantly I mean, I got bookmarks that I I scan Twitter, I scan YouTube, I scan Instagram, Facebook, I go into Telegram. And if you have been to Telegram, but you can find all this stuff happening. And these things are coming up left and right. And they have real consequences to dealers and lenders, right?
是的，我是说，我一直在不断地，我的书签里有我需要的东西，我浏览Twitter、YouTube、Instagram、Facebook，我还使用Telegram。如果你去过Telegram，你就会发现所有这些事情都在发生。这些事情左右逼近。对于经销商和贷款人来说，这些都会产生真实的影响，对吧？
Because these are what people are doing right now. The income fraud and employment fraud is just skyrocketing, you know, with affordability. And with the interest rates rising, people can't afford the cars. So they have to fudge their income. So we're seeing a lot of income fraud.
因为这是人们现在正在做的事情。收入欺诈和雇佣欺诈正如火如荼地增加，你知道，跟能力（支付能力）有关。而且由于利率上升，人们买不起汽车。所以他们不得不篡改自己的收入。所以我们看到了大量的收入欺诈行为。
Here's a stat for you. One in four people that walk into a car dealership are going to lie to you about their income. 25% of one in four one in four statistics is that wow, is that across every dealership or like specific or industry, right?
给你一个数据。四分之一走进汽车经销商的人会对你说谎关于他们的收入。 四分之一的25%是说嘿，这是在每家经销商还是特定行业中？
It could be higher. It could be a little lower. It's that's an industry average stat. We've seen some lenders that work with some dealers that when out of every three are misrepresenting their income.
它可以更高一些。它也可能稍微低一些。这是一个行业平均水平的统计数据。我们发现，一些与一些经销商合作的贷款方，每三个中就有一个在虚报收入。
So what's the net effect of that though? Is that the net effect just like, you know, greater than expected losses or what is actually the net effect? And then how do you actually fix that? Or how are you solving a portion of that? Like, are you are you looking up into like their portal into their dealership management system? Like, what's the solution?
那么，这究竟有什么实际影响呢？这个实际影响就像，你知道的那样，是否大于预期的损失，或者实际上是什么样的实际影响呢？那么，你们具体是如何解决这个问题的呢？或者你们是如何解决其中的一部分问题的呢？比如，你们是否正在查阅他们的经销商管理系统入口？那么，解决方案是什么？
Yeah, so what we do. So the what the issue with it is it generally results in a bar we're getting alone. They can't afford they overrepresented how much they can pay. Their loan payments are just too high for them. So they end up defaulting. We call it early payment default, meaning that they they stop paying almost right away because they just can't afford those payments.
是的，所以我们做的是什么。问题在于这通常会导致我们得到一个独立出来的酒吧。他们负担不起他们过高的贷款还款额。他们的贷款支付额对他们来说太高了。所以他们最终会拖欠。我们称之为提前偿还违约，意味着他们几乎立即停止还款，因为他们无法负担得起这些支付款项。
So what we try to do is get ahead of that. We have a product that's called income pass. And what we do with that is we analyze the borrower's income, their occupation, their employer. We go back in our proprietary data, all of our consortium data and see what they what are they reported in the past and does it track to their history. But we also have a lot of data about what you probably should make based on your occupation.
因此，我们试图提前做好准备。我们有一个叫做“收入通行证”的产品。我们通过这个产品分析借款人的收入、职业和雇主信息。我们会回顾我们自己的专有数据以及我们的协会数据，看看他们过去的报告与历史记录是否一致。此外，我们还拥有大量关于你的职业相应收入水平的数据。
If you're a plumber in New York City, the range that we typically see might be 80 to $100,000. So how do you fit there? If you're reporting way over that, we can flag it for the dealership so that they can do a little bit more research into that. Maybe analyze the pay stubs, look at the bank statements, use a tool where you can actually get right into those bank statements and scan if they're legitimate or not.
如果你是纽约市的水管工，我们通常看到的收入范围可能是80到10万美元。那么你的收入在哪个范围内呢？如果你的报告远远超过这个范围，我们可以提醒经销商，这样他们可以更深入地研究一下。也许可以分析工资单、查看银行对账单，使用工具直接进入银行对账单并扫描其真实性。
So it's really just where are you getting and where are you getting kind of most of your data? Most of your data comes in from lenders across the industry. So we're scoring millions of applications. So lenders send us every application and we scored for them. We're getting about 85 data points off the application, who the borrower was, name, address, phone, what type of car, who the dealer was, loan to values, all of the metrics around the loan itself, we get all that.
所以，核心问题就是您的数据主要来自哪里？我们的大部分数据来自整个行业的贷方。因此，我们对数百万个申请进行评分。贷方将每个申请都发送给我们，并为他们进行评分。我们获取大约85个数据点，包括借款人的身份，姓名，地址，电话号码，车辆类型，经销商，贷款价值比以及涉及贷款本身的所有指标等等。
And then we're able to score it and put it into a central database. So we can look at a lot of, we can look at how consistent a borrower is over time with their reporting. We can also see how the dealer's transaction flow. So what are they getting in? We can see if a dealer is getting a lot of risky loans or if a dealer is getting a lot of non risky loans, if they're getting a lot of synthetic identities or people misrepres in their income. We get to see at a dealership level as well, you know, who's really risky and who's not.
然后我们可以对其进行评分并将其放入一个中央数据库。这样，我们就可以观察借款人的报告是否一致，并能够观察经销商的交易流程。我们可以看到他们获取了什么样的贷款。我们可以判断一个经销商是否获取了很多冒险的贷款，或者是否获取了很多非冒险的贷款，是否获取了很多人工身份或者收入欺诈的人。我们还可以在经销商层面上看到，谁是真正冒险的人，谁又不是。
And how do you do all this? Like do you hook up with the dealer's deal-shamagement system or how do you actually get this information?
你是如何做到这一切的呢？比如，你是如何连接到交易商的欺诈管理系统，或者你实际上是如何获取这些信息的呢？
Yeah. So with lenders, we get it from their loan origination systems. So we're integrated with loan origination systems with dealers. We're integrated now with Route 1. We got it. The portals. Yeah. Portal. So we're integrated with a lot of those desktops. And so dealers can, when they get the loans in, they can hit our database and get the information they need.
是的。所以我们从贷款原始系统获取信息。我们已经与经销商的贷款原始系统进行了整合。我们现在与Route 1进行了整合。我们明白了。门户网站。是的。门户。所以我们与许多这些桌面系统进行了整合。因此，当经销商收到贷款时，他们可以访问我们的数据库，并获取所需的信息。
You had sent me an email, just a couple points. And one of the things you mentioned was these KBA quizzes, can you explain that to just the audience and the issues you're seeing with this thing, these KBA quizzes, what they are?
你给我发了一封电子邮件，只提了几点。其中之一是关于这些KBA测验的事情，你能为听众解释一下它是什么以及你对这种KBA测验存在的问题吗？
Yeah. KBA quiz stands for knowledge based authentication. And dealers hate these things.
是的。KBA测验代表基于知识的认证。而经销商们讨厌这些东西。
And my experience with it, as six months ago, I wanted to a dealership to buy a car.
而我的经历是，六个月前我想去一家经销商购买一辆车。
They printed off this KBA quiz, which is basically a survey from the credit bureau that's asking me things like, who do you have your mortgage with? You know, what color was your Hyundai Excel? And they ask you these questions that are off of the credit bureau and public records. And they're really archaic.
他们打印了这份KBA测验，基本上是信用局的一项调查，问我一些问题，比如说，你的抵押贷款是与哪家银行合作的？你的现代Excel是什么颜色？他们问的这些问题都是根据信用局和公开记录而来的，而且非常陈旧。
They were designed to really quiz the person coming in the dealership to see if they were a identity thief or the true person. But statistically, 50% of borrowers fail those quizzes because they're so difficult to answer a lot of these questions. 90% of fraudsters pass those quizzes. So they're really skewed to the fraudster being able to answer the questions for us, the consumer.
这些问题设计得非常考验来到车行的人，看看他们是身份盗窃者还是真正的本人。但从统计数据来看，有50%的借款人在这些测验中失败，因为这些问题实在太难回答了。而有90%的欺诈者在这些测验中通过了。所以可以说，这些测验的设计实际上更有利于欺诈者，而非我们这些消费者。
Yeah, it's like a false positive. Yeah. The false positives. And the reason is, is because fraudsters know they're going to get this quiz from a dealership. So they pull a credit karma before they walk into the dealership. And they will either have that with them or memorize some of the answers. So when they go in, they're able to fill it out. So it's just, it takes about five minutes. It's really an onerous process. It impacts borrowers. We just think it's like, probably something that shouldn't be done anymore. It just causes so much impact.
是的，就像一个误报一样。是的，误报。原因是，欺诈者知道他们要从经销商那里得到这个测验。所以他们在进入经销商之前会查看一下信用卡玛。他们要么带着信用卡玛报告，要么记住一些答案。所以当他们进去的时候，他们能够填写。所以这个过程大约需要五分钟。这真是个繁琐的过程。它会影响到借款人。我们认为可能不再需要这样做了。它造成了如此多的影响。
Do you see, but so do you see all this, like, I'm thinking about that, I'm thinking with the thinking cap of the dealer. Do you see all the fraud and stuff like this? Actually declining or at least consumer fraud that starts with the consumer. Do you see that declining with the adoption of like FinTech and digital retailing solutions?
你明白吗？不过你是否也看到了所有这些，比如，我正在考虑那个，我正戴着经销商的思考帽子思考。你是否看到了所有这些欺诈行为之类的事情？实际上，或者至少可以说，欺诈行为始于消费者。你是否认为随着采用金融科技和数字零售解决方案，这种趋势正在减少？
And like here, let me give you my context. Yeah. A couple years ago, we actually tried doing a direct integration with one of our lenders. And it was really interesting because the lender, some of the, I could see by the questions they were asking us that they were favoring this type of practice, or at least they were interested to see what it's going to work like, because they figured, hey, it's one less transfer of information. It's not the consumer going to the dealer, then the dealer submitting the information. So there's going to be less fraud in general, or you're going to have information that's more accurate.
就像这里一样，让我给你一些我的背景。是的。几年前，我们实际上尝试与我们的其中一家贷款人进行直接整合。这是非常有趣的，因为通过他们问我们的问题，我可以看出他们倾向于这种做法，或者至少他们很感兴趣看看它将会是什么样，因为他们觉得，嘿，少了一次信息传递。消费者不需要去经销商那里，然后经销商提交信息。所以总体上将会有更少的欺诈，或者你会得到更准确的信息。
And once you eliminate the human being from the equation, there's going to be less fraud. The issue we found was that people suck at putting in their own information. And so we shut it off because it didn't work. Like they didn't, at least a certain consumer wasn't able to properly put the right type of information within the system.
一旦将人类从这个环节中排除在外，欺诈行为就会减少。我们发现的问题是人们在输入自己的信息时很差劲。因此，我们关闭了这个功能，因为它没有起作用。至少有一个顾客无法正确地在系统中输入正确类型的信息。
So anyway, with that said, but the insight that I took away from that experience was that lenders loved hearing that a dealer or a middleman or middle, just there's no kind of middle party involved in the transfer of information, whether it be anyone, a dealer, a customer, whoever. So what do you think about that? Like with the adoption of these FinTech tools and systems and people really being able to get their terms and get their terms of their deal prior to even coming into a dealership, you think that's going to help this? Or do you think it's just going to introduce a different type of issue with the lending world?
总之，就我从那次经历中获得的见解而言，贷方喜欢听到在信息传递过程中没有经销商、中间人或中间方等中介的参与。不管是经销商、客户，还是其他人，大家对此有什么看法呢？对于这些金融科技工具和系统的采用以及人们能够在到店之前就获取到他们交易条款的情况，你认为这会有所帮助吗？还是会引入贷款领域的另一种问题呢？
Yeah, there's always, well, here's the thing about fraud. There's always a loophole, right? You solve something temporarily, and then they figure a way around it. So no matter what you do from a process perspective, you always have to expect they're going to find a way around it. Fraud is cheating. So that's what you can expect is it might give a temporary, it might help you temporarily, but at the end of the day, you're going to have to put in controls to stop the things that they find.
是的，关于欺诈，总是有一个，事实是，总有漏洞存在，对吧？你暂时解决了一个问题，他们就会找到绕过的方法。所以无论你从过程角度做什么，你都必须期望他们会找到绕过方法。欺诈就是作弊。所以你可以期望的是它可能会在暂时帮助你，但在最终还是要加入控制措施来阻止他们发现的事情。
There are some really good FinTech-type solutions, though, that are going to get the borrower more involved in the stipulation process. So if you think about one of the ways that I think it could go with FinTech is, you know, everybody has a phone, and the phone is a great way to collect information from a consumer.
有一些非常好的金融科技类型的解决方案，它们会让借款人参与到规定过程中。所以，如果你想想金融科技的发展方向之一，你会发现，每个人都有手机，而手机是从消费者那里收集信息的好方法。
So rather than get the consumer's driver's license, go to the fax machine, take a photocopy of it, and send it off to the lender. You know, there's technology now where you can just send the consumer a link. They take a picture of the driver's license. When they submit it, it goes through scanning software to verify if it's counterfeit, to verify it's legitimate, verify all the information goes back to the consumer, and then you get a full resolution copy of that driver's license in the file. That's an example of a great use of FinTech that I think will cut back on fraud, right?
因此，与其要求消费者提供驾驶执照，去找传真机，拍摄副本然后发送给贷款人，现在有一种技术可以直接给消费者发送链接。他们拍摄驾驶执照的照片，提交后会通过扫描软件进行验证，验证是否为伪造，验证是否合法，验证所有信息，并将结果返回给消费者，然后您会在文件中得到驾驶执照的完整拷贝。这就是我认为的一种很好的使用金融科技的例子，它将有助于减少欺诈行为，对吧？
And there's other ways that you can use the phone collecting the bank statement. So having people log in and provide access to their bank account and their statements, you know, directly to the lender and the dealer, that's going to provide a lot of value, I think, as well.
还有其他的方式可以使用电话收集银行对账单。因此，让人们登录并向借款人和交易商提供银行账户和对账单的访问权限，我认为也会提供很大的价值。
And do you guys this point predictive? Do you hook up with any of these services or is that through the lender side?
We hook up with the services. Yeah, we do. We do a lot of the, so a lot of public record searches will do hook up with providers for that. We're running some tests with a driver's license service. You know, we have a lot of different areas that we kind of plug into to try to give, make kind of a one stop shop. So the dealers don't need to keep going to all these different locations. Got it.
你们对这一点有预测吗？你们与这些服务方进行合作，还是通过贷方进行合作？
我们与这些服务方进行合作。是的，我们是的。我们有很多公共记录搜索，与供应商进行合作。我们正在进行驾照服务的测试。我们有很多不同的领域，我们努力提供一站式服务，这样经销商就不需要到处跑了。明白了。
From a company perspective, putting aside for a second, the, you know, the meat and potatoes is like, all it. How do you guys make money?
We make money transaction based. So when somebody hits our, we have an API, the API operates in real time. People ping that API. It generally takes about 400 milliseconds for us to respond. Every time they hit that API, there's a cost for that. And that's how we make money is just people calling our scoring and alerting services to get information and flags from us. Yeah.
从公司的角度来看，暂且不考虑其他方面，我们所依赖的主要就是重点业务。那你们是如何赚钱的呢？
我们是通过交易来赚钱的。当有人使用我们的API时，API会实时运作。人们发送请求到API，我们通常需要大约400毫秒来做出响应。每次请求API都会有成本产生，而我们通过提供评分和警报服务来获取信息和标识，从而赚钱。是的。
You know, I've always assumed that these services like are integrated with the lenders, but it makes sense. It makes little sense to think why, especially with, you know, where, what's happening in the macro economy and just how the consumer is getting squeezed, it makes sense to think about this more proactively kind of within the dealership, especially if you're saying that, you know, if it can improve loan performance, improve profitability, I think that's why I'd be really curious to know, like, what does that actually look like when it comes down to the, when it comes down to the brass tax, right? Like what are, what's actually the improvement? Like, doesn't move the needle and kind of so like how much?
Yeah. I mean, so for a dealership perspective, you know, we, when we go into a dealership and they're, they asked the same question, like, what is this going to do for me? And they'll give us all their fraud loans that they had over the last year and say, what, what would the system have told me at the time this person came into the dealership? And using the data, the proprietary data that we have and the, and the information that we're able to glean from that data, we're able to stop upwards of 90% of that fraud. We don't, we can't stop everything because some frauds always going to slip through, but about nine of, nine out of every 10 of those frauds that you had, we're able to kind of stop that. So brass tax, that's the improvement from a dealer perspective.
你知道，我一直以为这些服务和贷方是整合在一起的，但这样想确实很有道理。特别是在宏观经济情况和消费者面临压力的情况下，如果能在车行内更主动地考虑这个问题，提高贷款表现和盈利能力，那我真的很想知道具体的效果是怎样的，实际的改善有多大影响？
是的，从车行的角度来看，当我们进入一家车行时，他们也问同样的问题，即这对我有什么好处？他们会向我们提供他们在过去一年中发生的所有欺诈贷款，并询问系统在这个人进入车行时会给出什么样的提示。利用我们拥有的专有数据以及从这些数据中获得的信息，我们能够预防90%以上的欺诈。虽然无法完全杜绝欺诈，但我们能够阻止那些10个欺诈中的9个。这就是从经销商的角度来看的实际改善效果。
From a lender perspective, we're typically able to reduce their risk from a loss perspective by about anywhere from 40 to 60% of the defaults, early payment default. So these are loans that are faulting within the first six months. So that's really where we help stop loss. But we're actually, a lot of it's on the automation side. So for a dealer, the dealers are really frustrated, I think with a lot of the false positives they get from the red slag alerts they have to work. Because we're using more refined AI techniques and better data, we can typically get those false positives down to so ultimately less work as well. Yeah.
从贷方的角度来看，我们通常能够在损失方面将他们的风险减少约40%至60%。所谓的提前还款违约就是指在前六个月内出现违约的贷款。所以这正是我们帮助阻止损失的地方。但实际上，大部分都是通过自动化来实现的。对于经销商来说，他们对于自己不断收到的废红警报感到非常沮丧。因为我们使用更精细的人工智能技术和更好的数据，我们通常可以将这些误报减少到最低，从而减少工作量。是的。
So from a consumer perspective, I would, I would have hopefully dispel a myth, but you know, you can tell me from wrong, because you're the expert. Is it true that independent dealers are riskier than franchise dealers? And I say this as someone that's only been in the independent world, but I've seen franchise dealers with worse compliance and processes than the most simple stuff we have implemented. So I want to hear from you, like, are independent dealers actually riskier? And if so, like, why is that the case?
从消费者的角度来看，我希望能够驳斥一个传言，但是你可以告诉我我是否错了，因为你是专家。独立经销商真的比特许经销商更具风险吗？我这么说是因为我只在独立经销商中工作过，但是我见过一些特许经销商在合规和流程方面比我们实施的最简单的事情还差。所以我想听听你的意见，独立经销商真的更具风险吗？如果是这样，为什么会这样呢？
Yeah, I mean, so it's not that simple of an answer. If you look at it across the industry average, yes, independent dealers have higher fraud rates on average than a franchise dealer. But that doesn't really tell the real story, because there's a lot of dynamics that go into why that is. And a lot of times it's more a question of size than independent or franchise. Independent dealers often don't have the same access to capital that the big franchise dealers will. So they can't, like, recondition the cars necessarily to the same way some of the franchise dealers do. They don't have access to as much capital. So if they get hit with a fraud or two, that can put a small independent dealer out of business. So that financial aspect might make an independent seem riskier. But the fact is you're absolutely right. We see franchise dealers that are worse than any other any independent dealer we've seen. And it's because the franchise dealers oftentimes don't get the pushbacks from the manufacturers that they will that the independents will. The end is are screwed on. Yeah, it's the end is are absolutely scrutinized 100%. They're scrutinized. I've always I've always had this. Yeah. Yeah. So their fraud rates are gonna be higher because we've run into some dealerships and they're let's say they're Toyota dealership, right? And they're like, we get pushbacks from because they carry use cars too. They have we get pushbacks from Ford and Honda and we get pushbacks from Westlake or now I we never get one from Toyota. And I'm like, we have no fraud on Toyota. I'm like, no, you're just not getting the pushbacks. I mean, I think they don't pushback loans to their own dealerships. So naturally, independents are going to be at a higher pushback rate. And I think all of that. So it's not a one simple answer. You can't say, Oh, you're an independent, you're higher risk. It really depends on the dealership themselves.
是的，我的意思是这个问题并不简单。如果你看整个行业的平均水平，是的，相较于特许经销商，独立经销商平均来说有更高的欺诈率。但这并不能完全说明问题，因为有很多因素导致这种情况。很多时候，这更多是与规模有关，而不是与独立或特许经销商有关。独立经销商通常无法获得像大型特许经销商一样的融资渠道。所以他们可能没有办法像一些特许经销商一样对汽车进行整修。他们没有那么多的资金来源。所以如果他们遭遇了一两次欺诈，这就可能使得一家小型独立经销商倒闭。因此，从财务角度来看，独立经销商可能会被认为更具风险。但事实是你完全正确。我们确实见过比任何独立经销商更糟糕的特许经销商。这往往是因为特许经销商往往不会像独立经销商一样受到制造商的反对。他们的利润会受到影响。是的，他们受到了绝对的审查。他们接受了审查。我一直以来都是这样认为的。是的。所以他们的欺诈率会更高，因为我们遇到过一些汽车经销商，比如他们是丰田经销商。他们说他们遭遇了福特和本田的反对，还有威斯特莱克的反对，但从来没有过丰田的反对。我告诉他们，丰田没有欺诈。他们只是没有受到反对。我认为他们不会拒绝向自己的经销商提供贷款。因此，独立经销商自然会有更高的反对率。我认为所有这些都说明了这不是一个简单的问题。你不能说，哦，你是独立经销商，你的风险更高。这真的取决于经销商自己。
So like as but as a consumer, should I care where like, does it matter to me where I shop that? Listen, I always say like there's bad actors and good actors and every single segment of the market, you have great independence, you have not great independence, you have great franchises, you have my great franchises. So I hate lumping like everyone into like one bucket because it's just never accurate. But with that said, like as a consumer, like putting dealers aside for like as a consumer, should I care where I shop where I do if a, you know, a specific dealer or you know, business is engaging in kind of these frauds or like, or essentially what's the impact on me if that is the case?
那作为一个消费者，我应该在乎我在哪里购物吗？听着，我总是说市场中有好的商家和坏的商家，每个行业都有这样的人，有独立的好店，也有独立的不好的店，有好的连锁店，也有糟糕的连锁店。所以我讨厌把所有人都一概而论，因为这从来都不准确。但是就作为一个消费者来说，撇开经销商不谈，如果某个具体的经销商或企业从事欺诈行为，那对我有什么影响呢？
Yeah, it's interesting that that's an interesting question because we actually looked at what makes a dealer risky. And so we identified like, you know, 10 factors that makes one dealer risky and one not risky. And one of the fundamental things that we saw when a lender's experiencing a bad relationship with the dealer due to fraud, the consumers, if you go to the Yelp reviews and not that you can always trust these Yelp reviews and Google reviews, but we saw a strong correlation to the consumer experience to the lender experience. So when a dealer had a really bad rating, and they typically had a bad fraud relationship with a lender. So the consumer is being impacted simultaneous to the lender when there's a bad dealer. So got it. That's very interesting. Yeah. I was going to ask you like I read, I read an article a year or two ago where it was like, I forget exactly what it said about the early days of Facebook, the company, but it said that, like if you got, I think like five friends or something added on Facebook on a social network, there was like a 90% chance that you were going to become like a lifelong user. And so, you know, what I was going to ask, and maybe you just answered that question, but like, is there like, do you have that kind of heuristic or, you know, those like, if a dealer has a yellow flag on his lot, there's a high chance that he's committing fraud. Again, I say that like, sarcastically, but is there something like that from your data that you gleaned?
是的，有趣的是这一个有趣的问题，因为我们实际上研究了什么因素会使一个经销商具有风险。我们确定了10个因素，可以将一个经销商分类为有风险或无风险。当借贷方与经销商之间出现欺诈问题，我们发现了一个基本情况，即消费者的经历与借贷方的经历之间存在着强烈的相关性。因此，当经销商的评级很低时，通常意味着他们与借贷方之间有严重的欺诈关系。因此，当经销商有问题时，消费者和借贷方会同时受到影响。明白了。这非常有趣。是的。我想问一下，我读过一篇一两年前的文章，关于Facebook公司早期的情况，具体说是说，如果你在社交网络上的Facebook上添加了大约5个朋友，那么你有90%的机会会成为终身用户。所以，我想问的是，你们有没有类似的启发式方法，或者说，如果一个经销商的车场上有黄色的标志，那么他犯欺诈的可能性很高。我说的是用讽刺的语气，但是你们的数据中是否有类似的发现呢？
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of those. It's not a single stat, but I mean, there's things like, we can tell if a dealer is going to go bad by like a few different stats.
是的，我的意思是这很常见。虽然不是一个单一的统计数据，但我们可以通过几种不同的数据来判断一个经销商是否可能出问题。
Like the first thing we look at is since we calculate a fraud score for every application a dealer receives, if we're working with a lender, we see a dealer that has an average fraud score over the last month, over 700, and our score goes from one, which is low risk to 999.
就像我们所看到的第一件事情是，因为我们为每一个经销商接收的贷款申请计算一个欺诈分数，如果我们与一位债权人合作，我们会看到一个经销商在过去一个月的平均欺诈分数超过700，而我们的分数从1（低风险）增加到999。
So it's kind of like reverse of FICO, the higher the score, the higher the fraud risk. We see a dealer start to exceed a certain average fraud score.
这有点类似于FICO的反向，评分越高，欺诈风险越高。我们发现一个经销商的平均欺诈评分开始超过某个特定的阈值。
We know that their early payment defaults and pushbacks are going to go out the followers. That's a kind of a one heuristic that we have. We also see if a dealer's rate of synthetic identity, where we see how many synthetic identities are they flagging, if it goes above 10%, the one I've every ton loans like a synthetic, we know they're getting hit with fraud.
我们知道他们的早期违约和拖延一定会影响追随者。这是我们所持有的一种启发法。另外，我们还会观察经销商的合成身份率，也就是检查他们标记的合成身份数量是否超过10％，如果超过了，我们就知道他们正在受到欺诈攻击。
And we can typically go back to that deal and say, hey, you might want to look at what's happening. We look at kind of the transaction statistics from every dealer, and we can pick apart who's going bad and who's going to present a problem to a lender and maybe with the ownership themselves because they could go out of business.
我们通常可以回到那个交易，并说，嘿，你可能会想看一下正在发生的事情。我们查看每个交易商的交易统计数据，并可以分析出谁在恶化，谁可能对贷款人和所有者自己造成问题，因为他们可能会倒闭。
The fact is, though, 97% of dealers are above board. There's no shady activity, no high fraud going on. It's typically about 3% at any given time, where there's something going on at that dealership, whether it's a dealer themselves as the issue, or finance manager, or salespeople. So overwhelming majority dealers, I know the dealers get a bad name a lot of times for fraud, but it's really a few bad apples that kind of spoil the bunch.
事实是，尽管如此，97%的经销商是正当的。没有任何不正当的活动，没有高额欺诈行为。通常情况下，任何时候有关于那家经销商做了一些事情，无论是经销商本身的问题，还是金融经理或销售人员的问题，只是大约只有3%。所以绝大多数的经销商，我知道经销商常常因欺诈而名声不好，但实际上只有一小部分不良分子影响了整体形象。
You know, as you were speaking, one thought that came to my mind that I think would be pretty bad ass is that if I'm a very good actor, or at least if I'm above average and baseline as a dealer, or you know, I think that there should be some, or at least I found a lender, you could definitely reward me for that. I know it's like almost like rewarding for doing the right thing, which you should be rewarded for that. That's to be the default.
你知道的，当你说话的时候，我脑海中闪过一个非常酷的想法，就是如果我是一个非常优秀的演员，或者至少作为一个发牌员我在基本水平以上，或者你知道的，我认为应该有一些奖励，或者至少我找到了一个贷方，你肯定可以为此奖励我。我知道这几乎就像是为做正确的事情而奖励，而你应该为此受到奖励。这应该是默认的。
But I think that like, I just think that there's like an efficiency there almost, right? Like there's, if you can provide me with data, or if I'm simply performing above average, then you could almost give me a more competitive as a lender. You could be more competitive and offer me better rates, better terms. And I'm more inclined to go with your deal. Maybe it's just better for me, and it's better for the consumer.
但是我认为，就像，我只是觉得那里几乎有一种效率，对吧？比如说，如果你能给我提供数据，或者我只是表现得超过平均水平，那么作为一个借款人，你几乎可以给我更具竞争力的条件。你可以提供更好的利率、更好的条件。而且我更愿意选择你的交易。也许这对我来说更好，对消费者来说也更好。
So I think that it's very interesting. Whenever I see like, you know, billions of inefficiency anywhere, right? Like to me, it's an opportunity. And so I think it's smart. Like you're exposing that the thing that I'm thinking about right now is like, who is the lender? That's not just going to say, oh, that's great. Let me leverage this and make more money. But rather, let me leverage this and be more competitive by those dealers that are doing the right thing.
所以我认为这非常有趣。每当我看到无效的情况出现，比如说，无论在哪里存在着数十亿的无效，对我来说，这都是一个机会。因此我认为这是明智的。就像你正在揭示的那样，我现在考虑的是贷款人是谁？他们不会只是说，哦，太棒了，让我利用这个来赚更多的钱。相反，他们会利用这一点，通过那些做正确的事情的经销商来提高竞争力。
There's consumers that are providing right information. Let me offer them better deals. And then net net, I get more market share. The dealer gives me more business to consumers. Happy everyone wins.
有些消费者提供了准确的信息。让我给他们提供更好的优惠。最终，我能获得更多的市场份额。经销商会为我提供更多的业务，使消费者满意。大家都赢得开心。
Yep. That's exactly right. And we actually have a dashboard that lenders use of ours where we show them every single dealer in the country and how many loans, how many times we've seen them, how many frauds they've had, how many early payment defaults they had, their average credits.
是的，完全正确。实际上，我们有一个借方使用的仪表板，展示了全国每个经销商的贷款情况，包括我们发现他们的次数、欺诈行为次数、提前支付违约次数，以及他们的平均信用分数。
We have a dashboard and you'd be surprised. We have dealers in there that have never had a single fraud, have had very, very few defaults. I mean, these are pristine dealers that any lender would love to work with and give them, they wouldn't have to bear the cost of the that is that is submitting the fraud.
我们有一个仪表盘，你会感到惊讶。我们的经销商从未发生过任何欺诈行为，违约率非常非常低。我的意思是，这些是非常出色的经销商，任何贷款机构都愿意与他们合作，不需要承担欺诈行为带来的成本。
So absolutely, I think that's a major way that the lenders and dealers can get more cooperative and actually start to incent those dealerships that are really doing a great job and give them more favorable terms because that's going to impact the consumers as well, right? They don't bring in pay stubs and bank statements and all this paperwork. They can just get a loan very quickly at good rates.
所以，我认为这是放贷方和经销商可以采取的重要方式之一，通过给那些做得非常出色的经销商提供更有利的条件来激励他们，因为这也会影响到消费者，对吧？他们不需要带上工资单、银行对账单和所有这些文件，只需以较优惠的利率快速获得贷款。
Yeah, it's such a pain. The whole stipulation process for near subprime consumers. Yeah, there are, and if you know how to score these and look at their history and look at the data, there are subprime consumers with 550 FICO scores that perform far better than 750 FICO scores.
是的，这真是一件麻烦事。对于近次贷款借款人来说，整个限制流程都很麻烦。是的，确实存在这样的情况，只要你知道如何评估并查看他们的历史记录和数据，有些信用评分只有550分的次贷款借款人表现要比信用评分为750分的好得多。
You just have to know who those consumers are and really understand their. Yeah, for anyone that's listening that's not in the industry and doesn't have subprime near prime credit and has a bought a car, when that consumer comes to buy a car, it's a very lengthy and just tedious process collecting pay stubs and residency information, employment information, so it could take a long time if the consumer is not prepared.
你只需要知道那些消费者是谁，并真正理解他们。是的，对于那些不在这个行业里，没有次级准优良信贷并且已经买了车的人来说，当这些消费者来购买车辆时，收集工资单、居住信息、就业信息等非常繁琐冗长，如果消费者没有准备好，可能会花费很长时间。
Just very inefficient process. Part of the reason why it makes scaling subprime very difficult unless you have your own bank, cough, cough, carana, because they sort of streamlined that process for them in-house with their own lender or at least their own lending partnership with an affiliated entity, and that allowed them to make that process smooth and kind of digitized, which is something that the industry hadn't really seen prior to that, and still, frankly, you don't really see that. It's not too widespread as how they've done it, or has how carana's done it, whereas a prime credit customer is a much quicker, easier process.
非常低效的流程。这就是为什么在没有自己的银行的情况下，很难扩大次级贷款市场的一部分原因，咳咳，卡拉那，因为他们在自家内部与自家贷款人或者至少是与关联实体建立了自己的贷款伙伴关系，这使得他们能够使这个流程变得顺畅且数字化，这在这个行业之前并不常见，而且实际上，你现在也很难看到这样的情况。这种做法并不像卡拉那那样普及，而对于优质信用客户来说，流程要快得多，更容易一些。
Yeah, it's amazing. I think we look at it and lenders typically will stipulate almost every single deal for pay stubs and bank statements. Who has a pay stub anymore? 90% of people use direct deposits, so if you get asked for a pay stub, most people don't even know where to get that, the flip side of this is they're highly subject. You mentioned this to forgery. Go online, and for $5 and in about one minute, you can get a pay stub that says you make anything you want, and it looks pretty good. It can fool almost anybody. Yeah, I think there's a website, like fakepastubs.com or something like that. Oh, if you look at search-do-it-or-out search, there's hundreds and hundreds of them. There's even AI-based-ups. I'm sure there are.
是的，真是太惊人了。我觉得我们会经常看到贷款人在几乎每笔交易中都要求工资单和银行对账单。现在还有谁有工资单呢？90%的人都使用直接存款，所以如果你被要求提供工资单，大多数人甚至不知道去哪里获取，与此相反的是，它们很容易被伪造。你提到了伪造的问题。上网花5美元，大约一分钟，你就可以得到一份工资单，上面写着你想要的任何金额，而且看起来非常真实。是的，我记得有一个网站，叫做fakepaystubs.com或者类似的名字。哦，如果你搜索一下，会发现有成百上千个这样的网站。甚至还有基于人工智能的工资单。我确定还有其他类似的网站。
What are the opportunities here? I want to make money. How do I make money here? What's the plan? Yeah, I think for any dealership, if I was looking at it from a dealership perspective, I think a lot of dealers are getting burned with fraud right now is they're looking at fraud very myopically, just for red flags. They look at the credit bureau and that's all they see. I think the way that they have to do is broaden what they're looking at beyond just identity theft, but looking at income fraud and employment fraud.
这里有什么机会？我想赚钱。我该如何在这里赚钱？有什么计划吗？是的，我想对于任何经销商来说，如果我从经销商的角度来看，我认为很多经销商现在因为诈骗而蒙受损失，是因为他们对欺诈的看法很狭隘，只关注红旗警示。他们只看信用局的情况。我认为他们必须通过拓宽视野，不仅关注身份盗窃，还要关注收入欺诈和就业欺诈。
Here's something I actually didn't tell you, but this is a scheme that I think dealers really need to be aware of. We've identified in our data 11,000 shell companies are called fake employers that are being sold and circulated in the industry that they've stood up like a website. They have a phone number. They'll pass them a pay stub. So if you were a dealership and you recall that phone number, they would verify employment for that borrower. There are 11,000 of those that are being circulated.
以下是我实际上没有告诉你的事情，但这是一个我认为经销商真正需要注意的计划。我们在我们的数据中发现了11,000家称为虚假雇主的壳公司，它们在行业中被出售和传播，就像它们建立了一个网站。它们有一个电话号码。它们会给他们提供一份工资单。所以如果你是一家经销商，你回忆起那个电话号码，他们会为那个借款人验证就业情况。目前有11,000家这样的公司在流通中。
Really, if I say, where we go from here is dealerships should look beyond just that identity and to all these other things to stop those loans that are getting pushed back on because that's absolutely where I think fraud is heading is not just identity, but across the board. I think it's the lenders and dealers working more cooperatively with each other. We're seeing a big trend of this with use of a lot of the verification systems like the driver's license checking, the bank statements, the pay stubs, all of that being able to have the borrower participate in that. I think that's where we could go from there. It's just an easier process. That's going to never one look for more frauds, but actually make it a lot easier for the end borrower.
实际上，如果我说，我们接下来应该去哪里，经销商们应该超越仅仅关注身份，还要关注这些其他事物，来避免那些拖欠贷款的情况，因为我认为欺诈行为绝不仅仅是身份问题，而是普遍存在的。我认为，贷款人和经销商应该更加合作。我们正在观察到一种新趋势，使用许多验证系统，如驾驶执照检查、银行对账单、工资单等，所有这些都需要借款人的参与。我认为这是我们接下来可以实施的方向。这只是一个更简便的过程。这不仅可以更好地发现欺诈行为，而且还可以让最终的借款人更容易办理贷款手续。
What do you think when we look at just five years out, do you think anything systematically changes in the process of buying a car for consumers or dealers, or do you think it's more behind the scenes work is done and that makes everything more efficient? I think of course, things are going to move online. I think that's just a process where people are going to do more of that maybe paperwork online. But I think what's going to fundamentally change with a dealership in terms of fraud is there's going to be a lot more use of technology. I think it's going to be enabled through the phone. I think the borrower experience from a fraud perspective will be when you walk in a dealership, the first thing you may do is when you're applying for a loan is they're going to send you a link. You're going to upload your driver's license. You're probably going to give them maybe access by just logging into your bank account. You may give them your credentials for your ADP and then you're done. Everything is provided through the phone and everything is done in the background. No more paperwork, no more fax machines, no more blurry copies of documents going back and forth between the lender. It all goes into a portal. Everything's validated and it speeds up the process like days because you're basically having the borrower contribute their documents through these FinTech portals. I think that's the experience that borrower can expect.
当我们只看五年后的情况时，你觉得消费者或汽车经销商的购车过程会有哪些系统性变化？或者你认为更多的是在幕后进行的工作，从而使一切更加高效？我认为当然，事情将会朝着线上发展。我认为这只是一个过程，在这个过程中，人们可能会更多地在网上处理一些文件工作。但是我认为，关于经销商而言，基本上会发生的改变是在欺诈方面将会更加采用科技。我认为这将通过手机实现。从欺诈的角度来看，借款人的体验可能是当你走进经销商时，你申请贷款的第一件事可能是他们会给你发送一个链接。你会上传你的驾驶证。你可能会通过登录你的银行账户给他们访问权。你可能会给他们你的ADP凭证，然后你就完成了。一切都是通过手机提供的，一切都在幕后完成。不再需要纸质文件，不再需要传真机，在贷款方和借款方之间来回传递模糊的文件副本。一切都进入了一个门户网站。一切都得到了验证，这将加快流程，只需要几天的时间，因为借款人基本上是通过这些金融科技门户提交他们的文件。我认为这是借款人能够期待的体验。
What didn't I ask you? What are we missing? What are we missing? One of the things that I think is interesting from a dealership perspective is just how inexperienced their salespeople and their finance managers are around fraud. They just don't think it happens. I do a lot of dealership training for fraud.
我没有问你什么呢？我们还遗漏了什么？我们还缺少了什么？从经销商的角度来看，我认为有趣的一点是他们的销售人员和金融经理在诈骗方面的经验非常有限。他们根本不认为会发生这种情况。我经常为经销商进行诈骗培训。
Number one, what I find is you go in and it's a lot of younger salespeople who don't even know what fraud is. They're getting evolved, not getting involved, but they're being confronted with these frauds. They don't even know what to look for. I just think the training aspect and making people aware of it is half the battle. I think that's a big overlooked type of thing from a dealership perspective.
首先，我发现当你进入这些店铺时会发现很多年轻的销售人员，他们甚至不知道什么是欺诈。他们对此并不了解，但却面临着这些欺诈行为。他们甚至不知道该注意什么。我认为培训和让人们意识到这一点是解决问题的一半。我认为这是从经销商的角度来看一个被忽视的重要问题。
The other thing that I think is really interesting from a fraud perspective is when you talk about internal fraud at dealers because I know that's always been a hot topic. Is there internal fraud happening at dealers? There is and I would say 99.9% of that internal fraud, the owner actually has no idea that it's happening. It's oftentimes the finance managers or the salespeople that have come from other dealerships that bring these bad habits with them that get the owner in a lot of problems because they are basically passing fake pay stubs. They're working with these brokers that are bringing in bad borrowers or synthetic borrowers. I think just that aspect of internal fraud is something that owners need to be aware that it's happening because it can really take a dealership down. Pushback's and it can really damage the dealership. Yeah.
另一个我认为从欺诈角度来看非常有趣的事情是关于经销商内部欺诈。我知道这一直是一个热门话题。经销商是否发生内部欺诈？是的，我可以说99.9%的内部欺诈，业主其实根本不知道。通常是财务经理或从其他经销商来的销售人员带来了这些不良习惯，这给业主带来了很多问题，因为他们基本上是在传递假工资凭证。他们与那些带来不良借款人或合成借款人的经纪人合作。我认为经销商需要意识到这种内部欺诈的存在，因为它真的会让一个经销商倒闭。反对和问题都会让经销商受损。是的。
Yeah, like I said, anyone that's been in the business for significant period of time, you've experienced all these things or at least a lot of them in different forms and it can get dirty. It's definitely, especially now with what's happening in the market. It's something that is top of mind.
是的，就像我说的，任何在业务中待了很长时间的人，都会经历所有这些事情，或者至少在不同形式上经历过很多次，而且情况可能会变得很糟糕。尤其是现在市场上发生的事情。这是一个印象深刻的事情。
Frank, this has been super interesting. Before we wrap up, I know I asked you if there's anything else. I didn't ask you. But if you want to share anything else and also if you can tell us for the audience where they can learn more about you and Point Predictive.
弗兰克，这真的非常有趣。在我们结束之前，我知道我问过你还有其他事情。但我没有问你。但如果你想分享其他任何事情，也请告诉我们观众如何了解更多有关你和Point Predictive的信息。
Yeah, Point Predictive. If you're interested in hearing more about Point Predictive or check us out. We're at www.pointpredictive.com. We're also on LinkedIn if you're on that as well. You can reach out to us there. There's also info at Point Predictive if you have any questions about fraud. I'm always happy to help a dealership understand and weave into training and things like that. If you had a couple of frauds and you want us to kind of give you some perspective on it, we see a lot of fraud. Our fraud team here, last year identified 500 million just with our own fraud team in fraud. That's working with dealerships and working with lenders, kind of looking at those loans hand by hand. So we're happy to help in any way we can to kind of target this big problem.
是的，Point Predictive。如果你对Point Predictive更想了解或者想要检查一下我们，可以访问我们的网站www.pointpredictive.com。如果你也在LinkedIn上，我们也在那里。你可以通过那里联系我们。如果你对欺诈有任何问题，Point Predictive也提供相关的信息。我很愿意帮助贷款公司理解和了解培训等方面的内容。如果你有一些欺诈案例，希望我们能为你提供一些信息，我们经常处理大量欺诈案例。去年，我们的欺诈团队就帮助经销商和贷款人发现了5亿的欺诈行为。我们非常乐意以我们所能的方式帮助解决这个大问题。
I never thought I'd have such an in-depth conversation about fraud, but here I am. Yeah, you might. I love it. I think COVID did a lot of, one of the things that I've always said is people wonder why frauds up so much and it all started during the pandemic. My estimate, there was probably a million new people that learned how to commit fraud during COVID because they were going after PPP money and unemployment and they never went back to their day jobs. And they're all these million fraudsters now I call them newbie fraudsters are now going out and they're targeting cars.
我从没想过我会进行如此深入的关于欺诈的对话，但现在我就在这里。是的，可能会。我喜欢这样。我认为COVID做了很多事情，其中之一是人们想知道为什么欺诈案件增加了这么多，而这一切都是在疫情期间开始的。据我估计，在COVID期间可能有100万新人学会了如何进行欺诈，因为他们在追求PPP资金和失业救济金，并且他们从未回到他们的日常工作岗位。现在有这许多百万新手欺诈者，我称之为新手欺诈者，他们现在开始瞄准汽车。
We found one interesting thing. I'll just throw another anecdote out there, but we talked about synthetic identity. We went and looked at all the synthetic identity out of Chicago last year and we actually just searched for PPP loans. We want to say, did those people that bought a car with a synthetic identity actually ever try to get a PPP loan? In 76% of the people that wanted to dealerships to get a car with a synthetic identity last year had gotten a PPP loan the prior year? Oh, look at that correlation. Yeah, there was a very strong correlation. And that's why auto fraud is up so much this year because it's it's not PPP anymore. It's not unemployment fraud anymore. It's car loans. And that's why I think we're seeing this shift upwards and while these dealers are getting hit.
我们发现了一件有趣的事情。我只是再提供另一个轶事，但我们谈论到了合成身份。我们去年研究了芝加哥的所有合成身份，并且实际上只是搜索了PPP贷款。我们想要知道，那些用合成身份购车的人是否真的尝试过申请PPP贷款？去年76%去经销商用合成身份购车的人在前一年中获得了PPP贷款？哦，看看那个关联性。是的，有一个非常强的关联性。这就是为什么今年汽车欺诈居高不下的原因，因为它不再是PPP欺诈，也不再是失业保险欺诈，而是汽车贷款。这就是为什么我认为我们正在看到这种上升趋势，且这些经销商正在遭受打击的原因。
I love it.
My friend Frank, thanks so much for coming on.
Very interesting.
And I wish you lots of success.
This is definitely not unfortunately like a hot area, but I guess fortunately for your business.
So I'm sure you guys are going to do well.
Yeah, no, thanks.
And I really appreciate all that you do.
And I love all the stats you give and the charts and things like that.
I just do my best.
We always pass them around here.
We're like, I love it.
That's such a good.
Yeah, your newsletter is just really great.
Appreciate it.
Yeah.
Alright, my friend.
Thank you.
我喜欢它。
我的朋友弗兰克，非常感谢你的加入。
非常有趣。
祝你们大展宏图。
这绝对不幸地不是一个热门领域，但幸运的是对你的生意来说。
所以我相信你们会做得很好。
是的，不，谢谢。
我非常感激你所做的一切。
我喜欢你提供的所有统计数据和图表之类的东西。
我只是尽力而为。
我们这里总是互相分享它们。
我们都想，我喜欢它。
太好了。
是的，你的通讯简直太棒了。
感激不尽。
是的。
好了，我的朋友。
谢谢你。
Alright.
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