Socially Assistive Robots with Maja Matarić [AI miniseries]
发布时间 2023-06-28 08:30:00 来源
摘要
What if we each had a personal “buddy” to support us? Maja Mataric is a computer scientist, roboticist and AI researcher at the University of Southern California. She pioneered the field of socially assistive robotics: the design of robots to help humans—especially vulnerable people such as kids with autism, the elderly, and people struggling with illness—navigate complicated social needs. In the second episode of our AI miniseries, Maja, Reid, and Aria discuss AI, robots and our future with both. Throughout her career, Maja has sought to understand human needs and desires in order to create the right kind of robot. How big should it be? Should it be a humanoid? Animal? Or… WALL-E? These questions lead to the nature of empathy itself—and what it means for robots to be empathetic. Maja also responds to an AI-generated story that speculates on the role that a socially assistive robot could play for a multigenerational family.
Read the transcript of this episode here.
Read the AI story here.
For more info on the podcast and transcripts of all of the episodes, visit www.possible.fm/podcast.
Topics:
03:30 - What inspired Maja to pursue robotics?
06:09 - The pop culture perception of “doomsday robots”
07:32 - What are socially assistive robots?
10:20 - How socially assistive robots can enhance our humanity
12:55 - The relationship between an assistive robot and a human
16:19 - The hardware side of AI
20:05 - How our lives would look different with robots in them
24:06 - Why physically embodied robots are important
27:42 - AI story about intergenerational family and a robot assistant
31:16 - How VR/AR can be integrated with AI
38:34 - Rapidfire questions
44:10 - Debrief with Reid and Aria
Possible is a podcast that sketches out the brightest version of the future—and what it will take to get there. Most of all, it asks: what if, in the future, everything breaks humanity's way? In its first season, hosts Reid Hoffman and Aria Finger spoke with visionaries across many fields, from climate science to criminal justice, and from entertainment to education. For this special miniseries, they’re speaking with expert builders and skilled users of artificial intelligence. These conversations also feature another kind of guest, AI. Whether it’s Inflection’s Pi or OpenAI’s GPT-4, each episode will include an AI-generated element to spark discussion.
Possible is produced by Wonder Media Network and hosted by Reid Hoffman and Aria Finger. Our showrunner is Shaun Young. Possible is produced by Edie Allard and Sara Schleede. Jenny Kaplan is our Executive Producer and Editor. Special thanks to Samantha Barber, Surya Yalamanchili, Ian Alas, Greg Beato and Ben Relles.
GPT-4正在为你翻译摘要中......
中英文字稿 
How do you even develop machines that are going to be really helpful to a certain population? For example, having these robots for kids with autism and therapists were worried they said, you're trying to replace therapists, not at all. But then they actually saw it from the other side. They said, oh my goodness, this is great. I spent like one hour or two hours a day with a particular child and then I want them to practice things at home. And so isn't it grand if you can have this robot that ends up playfully doing this stuff? So that's the vision, the vision is that it's complementing the ecosystem of human support, which is never perfect.
你怎样才能开发出真正对某个人群有帮助的机器？以为例，为自闭症儿童设计的机器人，治疗师们最初担心它会取代他们的工作，但实际上他们从另一个角度看待这个问题。他们说，哦天啊，太棒了！我每天花一两个小时陪着一个特定的孩子，然后希望他们能在家练习。那么，如果能有一个机器人来玩耍地完成这些任务，岂不是美妙？所以这就是愿景，这个愿景是为了增强人类支持生态系统，而这个生态系统从来就不是完美的。
Hi, I'm Reed Hoffman. And I'm Aria Fingar. We want to know what happens if, in the future, everything breaks humanity's way. In our first season, we spoke with visionaries across many fields, from climate science to criminal justice and from entertainment to education. For this special mini-series, we're speaking with expert builders and skilled users of artificial intelligence. They use hardware, software, and their own creativity to help individuals use AI to better their personal everyday lives. These conversations also feature another kind of guest, AI. Whether it's inflections pie or open AI's GBD4, each episode will include an AI-generated element to spark discussion. You can find these additions down in the show notes.
嗨，我是里德·霍夫曼。我是艾里亚·芬格。我们想知道，如果在未来，一切都对人类有利，会发生什么。在我们的第一季中，我们与各领域的先知进行了交谈，从气候科学到刑事司法，从娱乐到教育。在这个特别的迷你系列中，我们与专业的建筑师和熟练的人工智能用户进行了交谈。他们利用硬件、软件和自己的创造力来帮助个人利用人工智能改善他们的日常生活。这些对话还包括另一种类型的嘉宾，即人工智能。无论是颠覆饼还是Open AI的GBD4，每一集都会包括一个由人工智能生成的元素来引发讨论。你可以在节目说明中找到这些增加的内容。
In each episode, we seek out the brightest version of the future and learn what it takes to get there. This is possible. So excited for the second episode of our summer arc on AI. And especially because we've been talking so much about large language models and how people used to talk about robotics, but now everyone's only talking about software. Not true. The guest today is an incredible researcher, practitioner, who was talking about AI and hardware, which means robotics. While of course we see in the digital world and so with a rapid evolution in the large language models, ultimately a lot of our lives are embedded. And a lot of the things we need to learn need to do are embedded. And part of what in particular about our selection of today's guest is the understanding that embedded doesn't mean like our am robot. But actually something that is there with us and actually in fact focuses on things like social interaction and human assistance.
在每一集中，我们追寻未来最光明的版本，并学习如何实现这种未来。这是可能的。我们非常期待夏季系列第二集关于人工智能的节目。尤其是因为我们一直在谈论大型语言模型以及人们过去如何谈论机器人技术，而现在大家只谈论软件。这并不准确。今天的嘉宾是一位令人难以置信的研究人员和实践者，他谈到了人工智能和硬件，也就是机器人技术。当然，我们在数字世界中看到了快速发展的大型语言模型，但很多方面的生活却是嵌入其中的。我们需要学习和完成的事情也是嵌入其中的。今天嘉宾的选择之所以特别，是因为对于嵌入式的理解，并不是指我们的机器人助手。而实际上，它是存在于我们身边的，并专注于社交互动和人类辅助等方面。
And first, everyone talks about LMS, little robots. And then no one's talking about this really important part of robots that I think is an important theme. It's not all of robotics, but it's a super important theme to add strongly in the discourse. And that's part of the reason why we couldn't be more delighted to talk to Maya. Maya Matarak is a renowned computer scientist, roboticist and professor at the USC Botrybury School of Engineering. She is founding director of the USC Robotics and Autonomous System Center and co-director of the USC Robotics Research Lab. Maya, we are so thrilled to have you here today.
首先，大家都在谈论LMS（机器人系统），小型机器人。然后没有人再讨论我认为是一个重要主题的机器人的一个非常重要的部分。这不是机器人技术的全部，但它是一个在讨论中非常重要的主题。这也是为什么我们非常高兴能够与Maya交谈的原因之一。Maya Matarak是一位著名的计算机科学家，机器人技术专家，也是南加州大学Botrybury工程学院的教授。她是南加州大学机器人与自动系统中心的创始主任，也是南加州大学机器人研究实验室的联合主任。Maya，我们非常高兴今天能有您的参与。
You are known as a pioneer in the field of robotics. Can you talk about your earliest memory of seeing or engaging with a robot? And like, what about that moment made you want to pursue robotics?
您在机器人领域被称为先驱。您能谈谈您最早见到或参与机器人的记忆吗？还有，是什么让您在那一刻想要追求机器人技术？
Well, my path to robotics is actually, I would say unusual in the sense that I'm not one of those people that tinkered into basement. We didn't have basements. I come from the former Yugoslavia, we lived in a high rise. So there was no option for basement. Instead, I came on Ponda Path because when I was in college, AI just started to emerge. It was at that time in what was called an AI winter. But I thought it was really interesting. But for some reason, even from then, from my college days, which now seems like it was in the dark ages, what I really was interested in is behavior in the real world. And so I was interested in psychology and people, but I was also interested in AI. And if you think about bringing together a lot of aspects of AI and the real world and people, well, that's really robotics because robotics is AI in the physical world around us. And I thought, oh, I came upon it and I read up on it. And I really read books and stuff. And I thought they were super boring. I'll be very honest about that. And I did not probably see my first robot really until I was in graduate school and looking around at possible labs. And he was the robotics labs of my former advisor that caught my eye because they had the funnest robots. So that's why. So a very unusual path, no early dreams of this at all. Oh, but I love it.
嗯，我进入机器人领域的途径实际上可以说是不寻常的，因为我不是那种在地下室里捣鼓的人。我们没有地下室。我来自前南斯拉夫，我们住在高层楼里。所以没有地下室的选择。相反，我走上机器人之路，是因为当我还在上大学时，人工智能刚刚开始兴起。那时正值所谓的"人工智能冬季"。但我觉得这真的很有趣。但出于某种原因，即使从那时起，从我上大学的那些日子开始，现在看起来就像黑暗时代，我真正感兴趣的是现实世界中的行为。所以我对心理学和人类很感兴趣，但我也对人工智能感兴趣。如果你考虑将人工智能和现实世界以及人类的许多方面结合起来，嗯，那就是真正的机器人技术，因为机器人技术是围绕我们的物理世界的人工智能。我想，“噢，这就是我偶然发现的，然后我读了一些相关的资料。我真的读了很多书和资料。但我认为它们都很无聊。我必须非常诚实地说。直到我上研究生时，可能才真正见到我的第一个机器人，当时我正在寻找可能的实验室。是我以前导师的机器人实验室吸引了我的注意，因为他们有最有趣的机器人。那就是为什么。所以，这是一条非常不寻常的道路，完全没有早期对此的梦想。哦，但我喜欢它。
I think you said like you were interested in the real world. You were interested in how to help people. You were interested in having fun. I think we should like we shouldn't forget that those are things that can lean to amazing careers in STEM and computer science and AI and all the things. In fact, what I would love to tell people is that there is no standard path. And even though I think often in the media in particular, we get this kind of typical path showcased like, oh, you know, I've been dreaming about this since I was a child. But in fact, I think it's perfectly lovely to dream of many things and arrive wherever you arrive and keep moving. And so I think it's not at all necessary to have thought about this before. My dad was an engineer. So I have to say probably I had some early influences and it turns out I'm really an engineer at heart. But how that was going to manifest itself? I didn't know. And it's still unfolding. And that's a great thing about just learning continually. So no, no strict paths people. Come on. Let's keep it open.
我想你说过你对真实世界很感兴趣。你对如何帮助人们感兴趣。你对享受乐趣感兴趣。我认为我们不应忘记这些都是通向令人惊奇的STEM、计算机科学和人工智能等领域的途径。事实上，我想告诉大家的是，没有一条固定的道路。虽然媒体常常展示一种典型的道路，例如“你知道吗，我从小就梦想做这个”，但实际上，梦想许多事情并最终到达某个地方，保持前进，也是非常美好的。所以，在此之前完全没有考虑过这个是毫无必要的。我的父亲是一名工程师，所以我必须说我可能早年受到一些影响，结果证明我真的是一个有工程师精神的人。但是，它会以怎样的方式显现出来？我不知道。而且这仍在发展中。这就是持续学习的美妙之处。所以，没有固定的道路，大家来保持开放吧。
Love that. Yeah, indeed. And, you know, part of it is to think about like kind of the actual interesting space of robotics because, you know, probably most of our listeners are open to robots and home and workspaces, but you know, kind of not prime to the full range and some of the stuff that you really do, which we're going into. You know, pop culture shows us, you know, doomsday scenarios, killer robots goes all the way back to the eponymous Terminator. So why do you think people are more fearful of physical robots than a non-physical AI? How does that affect how you do your research? Do you work? You know, what kinds of things you're doing?
喜欢那个。是的，确实。而且你知道，其中的一部分是要考虑到机器人的真正有趣的领域，因为，你知道，可能大多数我们的听众对家庭和工作空间中的机器人持开放态度，但对于你们真正做的那些事情并不完全了解，我们将进一步讨论。流行文化向我们展示了末日情节，杀人机器人的情况可以追溯到那个著名的《终结者》。那么你认为为什么人们对物理机器人更加恐惧而对非物理人工智能不那么恐惧？这如何影响你的研究工作？你们的研究工作是什么样的？
You know, it's really interesting that you would say that people are more fearful of physical robots because all studies show that when you take people who have not interacted with robots and you put them next to real robots, people are curious. We project our internal expectations onto machines. If the machine behaves in any even remotely lifelike way, no matter what it looks like, it may even be just the boring box. But if it moves in a particular way, we're going to be interested, we're going to be engaged, we're going to expect it to be intelligent, emotional, intentional. And so in fact, in reality, people aren't scared. Now, of course, in the media, there have been a lot of portrayals. I used to just call it so boring. And I've worked with really fun folks in the entertainment industry. And I would always start out by saying, please not lead with killer robots. So boring. Come on, be interesting. So I think the media will tell us that people are afraid of robots. But in reality, when people are confronted with a physical machine, we're actually quite interested. We are very social species and we're social with machines as well. So that is the truth.
你知道吗，你说人们更害怕物理机器人这一点非常有趣，因为所有的研究都表明，当与未曾接触过机器人的人们接触真实的机器人时，人们会感到好奇。我们会把内心的期望投射到机器上。如果机器以任何与生命相似的方式行动，无论它的外观如何，甚至可能只是一个无聊的盒子，我们都会感兴趣，会参与其中，会期望它具有智能、情感和意图。事实上，实际上，人们并不害怕机器人。当然，媒体上有很多描绘。我过去常常觉得那真是太无聊了。我曾与娱乐业中非常有趣的人们合作过。我总是会说，请不要从杀人机器人开始。太无聊了。来点有趣的。所以我认为媒体会告诉我们人们害怕机器人。但实际上，当人们面对一个实体机器时，我们其实很感兴趣。我们是非常社交的物种，与机器也有社交互动。所以这就是真相。
So that actually tees me out for my next question so well. You pioneered a subfield of robotics called socially assistive robotics. Can you tell us about that space and how does it fit into sort of the broader landscape of robotics?
这真的很好地引入了我接下来的问题。你开创了一个名为社交辅助机器人的机器人子领域。你能告诉我们关于这个领域的情况，以及它如何融入到更广阔的机器人领域中吗？
I am always happy to talk about my field. So of course. So when I started out in robotics, of course, when you start out, you work on stuff that's out there. And so my first work was on getting a robot to navigate. And people are still working on robots navigating, although we're pretty darn good at it. We have autonomous cars, so the field is moving along.
我总是很乐于谈论我的领域。所以，当然可以。所以当我开始从事机器人技术时，当然，当你刚开始时，你会处理已有的东西。因此，我的第一个项目是使机器人能够导航。虽然人们仍在研究机器人导航，但我们在这方面已经相当擅长了。我们已经有了自动驾驶汽车，所以这个领域在不断发展。
And then I worked on teams of robots because I always liked social interaction. And I got a team of little, we called it a nerd herd. And I had 20 because I was very fortunate that my advisor could make that happen. And so I was hurting these robots, it was crazy.
然后，我加入了一个由机器人组成的团队，因为我向来喜欢社交互动。我们将这个团队称之为"书呆子群体"，里面有20个机器人。非常幸运的是，我的导师能够为我提供如此多的机器人。于是，我开始指导这些机器人的工作，感觉非常疯狂。
And it was really only after I had kids, or at least my first kid, that I started to think about not only what I'm doing, which is fun and intellectually curious, but really why. Kids will do that or kind of real, the real world and life will do that. And when I started thinking about why am I doing this and I wanted to have a really good answer when my kid asked me, not just what do you do, mommy, but why do you do it?
只有在我有了孩子，或者至少在我有了第一个孩子之后，我开始思考的不仅是我在做什么，这让我感到快乐和充满好奇心，而是真正的原因。孩子们会触发这种思考，或者可以说是真实的世界和生活会让人这样思考。当我开始思考为什么我在做这些事情时，我希望能给孩子一个真正好的回答，不仅仅是"妈妈你在做什么"，而是为什么你要这样做？
And I realized that why had to be more than I get a lot of papers published and people think it's nice, but who are these people? I want to be able to tell my kids that I make robots to help people. And so I then really started to look at how can we actually make robots to help people, and that's hard. And I looked at rehabilitation robotics, I looked at people who needed physical help right after an injury or a disability.
我意识到为什么要超越自己。我发表了很多论文，人们觉得不错，但这些人是谁呢？我想能告诉我的孩子，我是在制造机器人来帮助人们。于是我开始认真地思考，我们如何能够真正制造出能够帮助人们的机器人，但这非常困难。我研究了康复机器人，关注了在受伤或残疾后需要身体帮助的人们。
And that was really hard. It was a field that existed, but I really wanted to do something that people would have in their lives continually because even back then, I had the sense that people are in different paths all the time and we need help occasionally, if not all the time, different kinds of help. And I don't mean physical help, I mean, really sort of emotional support.
那真的很困难。虽然当时这个领域已经存在，但我真的想做一些能让人们在生活中持续受益的事情，因为即使那时候我就意识到人们总是处于不同的阶段，有时候需要帮助，或许一直都需要不同形式的帮助。这里我并不是指身体方面的帮助，而是真正的情感支持。
And as I was working through that, I realized that, oh, and this is 20 years ago, you know, AI and robotics was about ready to go into a field where you can create machines that will be with you in your home even every day, not rolling around around your home, not manipulating objects in your home. We're still not there even now 20 years later, but we can have machines that will be there and support you on your journey of the specific thing you need, whether you're trying to teach a child with autism, social skills like I gaze, whether you're trying to help an Alzheimer's patient, just kind of exercise their brain and talk to someone or a stroke patient to just do the boring daily rehab exercising. That's the niche that I wanted to get into. And you know, it's great because it's very easy for me now to say, hey, mommy makes robots to help people. So I got there.
我工作期间意识到，哦，这是二十年前的事了，你知道，人工智能和机器人技术正准备进入一个领域，在这个领域中，你可以创建一些机器，它们可以每天陪在你身边，不是在你家里四处走动，不是在你家里进行物体操作。即使到现在已经过了二十年，我们仍然没有达到那个境界，但我们可以有一些机器能够陪伴你，在你需要的特定事项上提供支持，无论你是想教育一个自闭症儿童社交技能，还是想帮助一位阿尔茨海默病患者锻炼大脑并与他人交谈，或者是帮助一位中风患者进行枯燥的日常康复锻炼。这就是我想进入的领域。而且，你知道，现在对我来说很容易说：“妈妈做机器人帮助人们。”所以，我实现了我的目标。
Well, yes, for sure. But this is a great setup to one of the things I think is really a key part of your work that made us really excited to have this podcast and talk to you, which is how is that helping people that the interaction, the tracking the eye gazes are, how does that help us become more human? Like what's in that helping? It obviously does help in tasks and help in navigation of the home environment or other kinds of things. But what's also the way that extends our humanity through it?
当然，这绝对是一个很好的配置。但是，我认为这是你工作中的一个重要组成部分，它让我们非常兴奋能够有这个播客并与您交谈。这是因为互动、追踪眼神转移对帮助人们有什么益处？它如何帮助我们变得更加人性化？显然，它在任务执行和家庭环境导航等方面确实有帮助。但是，它如何通过这些方式扩展了我们的人性？
I am so glad you asked. So first of all, my first premise that I arrived at by talking to a lot of stroke patients and their families, families with kids without them, you know, we spent a month and more in homes with kids without them collecting data. So learning from from what people said they needed.
我很高兴你问了。首先，我的第一个前提是通过与很多中风患者及其家人交谈得出的，还有没有中风的家庭，我们在没有中风的家庭中花了一个多月的时间收集数据。所以，我们从人们所需的事物中学到了很多。
So there was a very loud and clear message from everyone that people wanted to have a sense of purpose. They wanted to have a sense of ability and autonomy like, you know, I am who I am because of all of these things that I can do. It's difficult to know who you are if you don't have a sense of anything that you can do and feel good about doing.
所以，每个人都发出了一个非常响亮和明确的信息，即人们想要拥有目标感。他们想要拥有能力和自主权感，比如，你知道的，我是谁，正是因为我能做所有这些事情。如果你没有任何能够做并为之自豪的事情，很难知道自己是谁。
The thing is that when people are empowered, they also start to think outward. And so we have had robots, for example, that just behave empathetically to the user and in that way, make the user more empathetic. And the interesting kind of positive cycle that gets created there is, you know, studies show that if you're behaving empathetically, you're actually healthier. You get a health benefit from being a nice person. So, you know, even if you're totally selfish and don't even care about anyone else, you should still be nice because it benefits you. But as it happens, it also benefits other people. So, you know, we're wired to be these social helpful empathetic entities.
事实是，当人们被授权时，他们也开始向外思考。因此，我们已经有了一些机器人，例如，它们只是对用户表现出共情，从而使用户更具共情能力。而在这种情况下出现的有趣正向循环是，研究表明，如果你表现出共情，你实际上更健康。成为一个友善的人会使你有健康的益处，所以即使你完全自私，不关心别人，你仍然应该友善，因为这对你有好处。但实际上，它也对其他人有好处。所以，我们天生就是这些有助于社交、乐于帮助他人、有共情能力的个体。
And so when we create these machines, we're very conscious that we're not just trying to help one person with the exclusion of others. But we're saying, you know, look, look, the robot is modeling good behavior for you, positive behavior, helpful behavior that empowers you, which makes you the kind of person who does that in return.
所以当我们制造这些机器时，我们非常明确地意识到，我们并不只是试图帮助一个人而排除其他人。而是在告诉你，你看，看，机器人正在为你塑造良好的行为，积极的行为，帮助你的行为，使你变得能够回报他人的那种人。
I know it sounds kind of like earthy crunchy, but we are really completely based on the literature from basically we read a lot of behavioral economics, behavioral science, social science and neuroscience so that we can understand what works here in the human head. So, and what makes us humans feel better and behave better? And then we implement that on our robots. That's fantastic. I love the conversation about empathy and it's interesting how it sort of spans hardware and software. And everyone always says to your point, the best engineers and the best product managers are empathetic. They understand their users, the consumers. And so when we're thinking about empathy with the robots, like if these are empathetic acting robots, what relationship should we, like, should the robots have with empathy? Should they feel it? Should they understand it? Should they recognize it? Like, how does that work on the robotic side? In addition to, of course, it, you know, helping humans to be more empathetic themselves.
我知道这听起来有点像土的、嚼得慢的，但我们实际上完全基于文献，基本上，我们阅读了很多行为经济学、行为科学、社会科学和神经科学的文献，以便我们可以理解什么对人类大脑有用。那么，什么能让我们人类感觉更好，行为更好呢？然后我们把那些东西应用在我们的机器人上。那太棒了。我喜欢关于共情的对话，有趣的是它涵盖了硬件和软件。每个人总是说到你的观点，最好的工程师和最好的产品经理是有共情能力的。他们理解他们的用户，消费者。所以当我们考虑机器人的共情时，如果这些是表现出共情的机器人，那么他们应该与共情有怎样的关系呢？他们应该感受到它吗？他们应该理解它吗？他们应该认识到它吗？就像在机器人的一面工作一样，这是如何实现的？当然，还有帮助人类变得更加有共情能力这一方面。
So, empathy is a really interesting challenge because first of all, if you look at the science of empathy, there's disagreement there already. So, in the neuroscience of empathy and cognitive size of empathy, some people will say empathy is what you feel, right? So I feel empathetic towards you. Other people like Simon Baron Cohen, who is a well-known neuroscientist from Europe, have written a lot about empathy being actually what you do. So it's about the behavior, not about what you feel. That's really important because that means if we believe that empathy is how we behave, then robots can be empathetic because robots cannot feel. There's no feeling. Why can't they feel? They don't feel because they don't have the mush that we have. You know, they don't have nerve transmitters and they don't have hormones and they don't have all these other things that make us feeling creatures.
所以，同理心是一个非常有趣的挑战，首先，如果你看看同理心的科学研究，就已经存在分歧。在同理心的神经科学和认知方面，有些人认为同理心是你所感受到的，对吧？所以我对你感到同情。而其他人，比如来自欧洲的著名神经科学家西蒙·巴伦·科恩则认为同理心实际上是你所做的事情。所以它与行为有关，而不是你所感受到的。这一点非常重要，因为这意味着如果我们认为同理心是我们的行为方式，那么机器人也可以具备同理心，因为机器人没有情感。它们没有感觉。为什么它们不能感觉到？因为它们没有像我们这样的复杂结构。你知道，它们没有神经传递物质，也没有激素和其他使我们成为有感情生物的东西。
We've done a bunch of studies where we've one created robots that are empathetic and that's very easy. Others have done this as well, right? You can basically have a robot that says things like, oh, I'm so sorry you feel that way and I know how you feel and I've been through that as well. So you can make a robot appear and behave empathetically and therefore, according to Baron Cohen, also be empathetic. What's more interesting to me is not how a robot should be empathetic, but how a robot can get a person to be empathetic because as we know from science, again, if the person is empathetic towards themselves, right, self-accepting and towards others, their health outcomes will be better, you know, they will be a better person to be around. So it's all together a good thing.
我们进行了一系列研究，其中我们创建了具有共情能力的机器人，这非常容易。其他人也做过类似的研究，对吗？基本上，你可以拥有一个机器人，它说的话像是“哦，我很抱歉你有那种感觉，我知道你的感受，我也经历过。”因此，你可以使一个机器人表现出共情的样子和行为，因此根据巴伦·科恩的说法，机器人也可以具备共情能力。对我而言更有趣的不是机器人应该如何具备共情能力，而是机器人如何能促使人具备共情能力，因为正如我们从科学中了解到的那样，如果一个人对自己有共情能力、能够接受自己，并对他人具有共情能力，他们的健康结果将更好，他们将成为更好相处的人。所以这完全是一件好事。
So we've been really working with what should the robot do to make you empathetic? And it's really interesting. We've done some studies with relatively pathetic robots, like really needy and kind of like, oh, I'm failing. Oh, I'm failing again. It's very funny and it's amazing. People are just really helpful. Frankly, I was surprised to find out that kind of a snarky, funny robot was very unpopular and that kind of just a blah. I have failed again. My cameras are not receiving information was more well received. And then the really needy. Oh, no, I can't. The force is not with me. I'm banging my head against the wall. That robot got the most help for the longest time. So I don't want to overgeneralize. I think if that were in your home, you might grow tired of it. Sure. But if you're just encountering a robot in the real world and it's needy, it turns out that is actually better received than a very transactional cold robot. Or I really like, oh, well, I guess I'd lost my leg, but whatever. Right. So it's very interesting how empathy is very, I'm just going to use Star Wars technology. It's strong within us. So it can be. And it is something that sorry, it's something that we can evoke and we can reinforce.
所以我们一直在努力研究机器人应该做什么才能引起你的共情？这真的很有趣。我们已经进行了一些研究，使用了一些相当可怜的机器人，比如真的很需要关爱的机器人，像是“哦，我失败了。哦，我又失败了。”这非常有趣，也令人惊讶。人们真的很乐意提供帮助。坦率地说，我很惊讶地发现那种有点带刺又幽默的机器人很不受欢迎，而一种无趣的机器人，就像是“我又失败了。我的摄像头没有接收到信息。”反而更受欢迎。然后是那些非常需求强烈的机器人，像是“哦，不，我不能。力量与我同在。”它得到了最长时间的帮助。所以我不想笼统地概括。我认为如果这样的机器人在你家里，你可能会对它厌烦。当然了。但如果你只是在现实世界中遇到一个需要关爱的机器人，结果发现这比一个非常交易性冷漠的机器人更受欢迎。或者像是，“哦，嗯，我猜我失去了我的腿，但随便吧。”对吗？所以这非常有趣，共情在我们内心深处是强大的，而我们可以唤起和加强这种共情。
Well, I love it. I think that part of the notion of like the human condition, the human elevation, is we also like to feel wanted, like to feel needed, like to feel that we're important. And that's part of the work you've done. And on path to. One of the things that I think is also super interesting here, because obviously the huge amount of public discourses around the software of AI right now, you know, A100s, A100s. What are the things that are particularly important for the hardware side to contribute?
嗯，我很喜欢。我认为其中一部分关于人类状况和提升的观念就是我们希望被需要，希望被重视，希望感到自己重要。而你所做的工作就是为此做出了贡献。同时也在努力实现这一目标。这里还有一点我觉得特别有意思，因为现在围绕人工智能软件存在着大量的公共话题讨论，你知道，A100，A100。那么在硬件方面，有哪些特别重要的贡献呢？
Well, thank you for asking about the hardware side, because we are right now, you know, in the world so embroiled on the AI, which is purely software side that we're kind of pushing this aside, robotics is almost still fringe. But the reality is it's the physical embodiment. It's the physical manifestation of intelligence in the world.
嗯，谢谢你对硬件方面的关注，因为现在我们都知道，全球对人工智能如此热衷，而这仅涉及到软件方面，使得我们对机器人技术有些忽视了，机器人技术几乎仍然处于边缘地位。但实际情况是，机器人是智能在现实世界中的物理体现，是智能的物质化之形。
And as we know, how people appear and how we physically behave has a huge impact on how we relate to one another every little bit about how we design and build a robot is important. And that's why it's so hard. So first of all, you know, there's the basic stuff about safety. And I don't even want to talk about that because we already know robots must be safe. Okay, I mean, that's a given, right? And that's still hard. And so that's why we don't we still don't have robots all over the place, but we're getting there. And that's why the robots that my lab works with are small and safe and often soft. And you know, they're just because we don't we want to make sure safety is not even an issue.
正如我们所知，人们的外貌和行为举止对我们彼此之间的关系有巨大影响，我们在设计和构建机器人时的每一个细节都非常重要。这也是为什么这么难。首先，你知道，基本的安全问题是肯定要考虑的。我甚至不想谈论这个，因为我们已经知道机器人必须是安全的。对吧？而且这仍然很困难。这就是为什么我们还没有到处都有机器人，但我们正在不断发展。这也是为什么我实验室研究的机器人通常是小型、安全和柔软的原因。你知道，就是因为我们希望确保安全根本不是一个问题。
But after safety, that this begins now begins the hard part. So what should it look like? How tall should it be turns out just how big the robot is has a huge impact in how you psychologically perceive it and how you respond to it physiologically without even realizing it. If it's sort of more than about three quarters of your size, it's going to impact you physically differently. And so you'll be reluctant at a certain level. You can accustom yourself to it, but you'll be more reluctant than if it's smaller.
但是在确保安全之后，现在开始的是困难的部分。那么它应该是什么样子的呢？它的高度应该多高呢？原来机器人的大小对你的心理感知和身体反应有巨大影响，即使你没有意识到。如果它比你的身高多出大约四分之三，它会以不同的方式对你产生影响。因此，你会在某种程度上感到不愿接近。你可以适应它，但相比较较小的机器人，你会更加不愿意。
How does it look? Does it look like an animal? Does it look like a biologically existing creature? Does it look like the human or does it look like nothing at all that's really familiar to you? This is incredibly important. I'm engaged in conversations both with companies and obviously in research about, you know, what would you want a robot to look like? And it really depends, right? If you're talking about, so if you start talking about humanoid robots, then you have this huge load of human expectations.
它看起来怎么样？看起来像动物吗？看起来像一种生物存在吗？是看起来像人类，还是看起来完全和你熟悉的任何东西都不一样？这非常重要。我正在与公司和显然是在研究中进行对话，关于你希望一个机器人长什么样的问题。这实际上取决于情况，对吧？如果你谈论类人机器人，那么你就会面对人类的大量期望压力。
If you build something that people really have to get used to and they have to get over certain things, well, you know, that's not good design. Good design is that it has the metaphors that evoke just the right expectations that you lean into and you really enjoy. So that's why the design is really important and it's very wide open. So now it has an open field for it to disappoint you or, you know, engage you and endear you. And that's a lot of expectations on that robot.
如果你建造了一样东西，人们真的必须适应并且必须克服一些困难，那么，你知道，那就不是好的设计。好的设计是具有能够唤起合适期望的隐喻，使人愿意接受并享受其中的设计。所以这就是为什么设计非常重要并且非常广泛的原因。现在它为了让你失望或者让你愉悦而有着开放的领域。对于那个机器人，这是很多期望。
Like, wow, but if you do it right. And so my favorite, favorite example is Wally. Wally is just a, you know, one of my favorite robotics movies. Actually it is my favorite robotics movie because here's a thing that looks like, what is that? Like some kind of old rusty mechanical, you know, garbage collector, but it's so completely endearing and you just got to love it. Now that is good design. Whereas in comparison you have in the same movie, you have Eve, which is egg like. So eggs we get that's like sort of biological cool. It's also like kind of apple white plastic key. Nothing warm about Eve. Nothing. Yeah, she's very, she's very like out there. Oh, high tech, but you know what a hugger, but you want to hug Wally and you know, he smells, but you still want to hug him. So that's what I mean by good design. And you know, that's those are, you know, creative people who drew animation. But in the, in the end, when we start designing robots that will really be wonderful for people, that's the kind of creativity that we need.
喜欢，哇，但前提是你做得对。所以，我的最爱，最爱的例子是瓦力。瓦力只是一个我最喜欢的机器人电影。实际上，它是我最喜欢的机器人电影，因为它看起来像什么？像某种旧锈迹斑斑的机械，垃圾收集器，但它是如此令人喜爱，你就会爱上它。现在，这就是好设计。相比之下，在同一部电影中，你还有伊娃，它像个蛋。蛋我们知道，那是种生物性的酷东西。它也有点像苹果白色塑料键盘，一点温暖的感觉都没有。是的，它非常炫酷，高科技，但你知道吗，你会想拥抱瓦力。你知道，他有异味，但你仍然想拥抱他。这就是我所说的好设计。你知道的，那些绘制动画的有创造力的人。但最终，当我们开始设计真正为人们带来美好的机器人时，那就是我们需要的创造力。
No, I mean, it's so interesting. Like you said, it's, it's obvious, but still so critical. Like what is the design of this robot going to be? And so let's like go down a level.
不，我的意思是，这太有趣了。就像你所说的那样，它显而易见，但仍然非常关键。比如这个机器人的设计会是什么样子呢？所以，让我们深入了解一下。
If you're an average listener of the possible podcast, how could their lives look different? If they were looking, you know, if they were using socially assisted robots on a daily basis, socially assistive.
如果您作为可能的播客的普通听众，他们的生活会有何不同呢？如果他们在日常生活中使用社交辅助机器人，您懂的，以社交帮助为目的。
Oh, socially assistive robots on a daily basis. Just to explain that. So the idea is that we were looking at assistive robots, assistive robots to help people, usually people who really need help, right? So I don't mean like, yeah, it's going to go affect you a beer. You should do that yourself. But socially assistive is that they're assistive. They're helping you. They're assisting you. And then they're doing that socially through social interaction rather than physically.
噢，社交辅助机器人每天都在。只是为了解释一下。所以，我们的想法是，我们正在研究辅助机器人，辅助机器人用于帮助人们，通常是那些真正需要帮助的人，对吧？所以我不是说，是要去给你倒杯啤酒。那也应该是你自己去做。但是社交辅助机器人的意思是，它们是辅助性的，它们在帮助你，辅助你。然后通过社交互动来实现，而不是通过身体上的实际帮助。
For example, if you've had a stroke and you can't reach something and it reaches it for you, what we would like to say is like, can we, if at all we could get you to reach it yourself? That's what we like to like, I'm going to give you grit and support and like make you feel better.
举个例子，假设你曾经中风过，现在无法够到某样东西，那么，我们希望表达的意思是，能否让你自己去够到它呢？这就是我们希望的，我会给予你勇气和支持，帮助你感到更好。
So here's the idea. Imagine that, you know, you're getting up in the morning and it's a, it's a, you'll have some challenge. Maybe you've had a stroke and so a part of your body is disabled. Something, maybe it's just your dominant arm, right? So you're supposed to exercise, you're supposed to do things like reach for your coffee maker with your stroke affected limb.
所以这是个想法。想象一下，你早上起床时面临一些挑战。也许你中风了，所以身体的一部分瘫痪了。比如说，可能只是你的主要手臂受到了影响。所以你应该锻炼，应该用中风受影响的肢体去拿咖啡机。
Well, that's going to be really inefficient and it's going to look like crap and it's going to demoralize you every time because, you know, you just like to be the self that you were before the stroke happened. Now, maybe you're fortunate and you have amazing people in your life 24 seven who are going to be like, you can do it. And by the way, they're not going to enable you by reaching for that for instead of you, because if everybody gives it for you, you will forever be disabled. And if you use the other arm, you'll forever be disabled.
嗯，那样做会非常低效，看起来也很糟糕，而且每次都会打击你的士气，因为你喜欢成为中风发生之前的那个自己。也许你很幸运，生活中有一些非常棒的人24小时总有人陪伴在你身边，他们会告诉你可以做到。顺便说一下，他们不会替你做那些事情，因为如果每个人都替你做，你将永远残疾。如果你使用另一只胳膊，你也会永远残疾。
So you have to fight your brain to get better. Who is going to be there to constantly support you and say, sometimes that is fantastic. Great job. Or you're dropped to be, you know what? You tried. That's better than not trying. And sometimes, sometimes, but necessary will say, okay, really? Really? Are we going to sit now again? Come on, get off, get off the chair. Come on, let's go reach for that thing.
所以你必须与大脑斗争才能变得更好。谁会不断支持你并说，有时那是太棒了。干得漂亮。或者你可能会感到失落，但你知道吗？你尝试过了。这比不尝试要好。有时，有时候，但却是必要的会说，好了，真的吗？真的吗？我们现在又要坐下来了吗？加油，离开椅子。来吧，一起去追求那件事。
So you need a coach and people in your life are not necessarily always available or able. They have their own stuff that they have to deal with. So the idea is we want to have this companion robot that's going to help you through what is these days called the journey. So there's technology that can help you, you know, get you out the door.
所以你需要一个教练，但你身边的人并不总是有空或有能力来扮演这个角色。他们有自己要处理的事情。因此，我们的想法是拥有一个伴侣机器人，来帮助你度过这个如今被称为“旅程”的过程。因此，有一种技术可以帮助你，让你能够离开家门。
Now we've also worked with kids with autism and they would want to understand things like, is this person interested even in talking to me? How can I tell? And so they can have this companion robot to talk them through it, to practice social gaze, to practice like, okay, look at me, but now don't keep looking at me because that's creepy, occasionally look away. Where do you look away? Doesn't matter. Just look somewhere and then look back and they can practice because unfortunately other kids are not going to practice with them.
现在我们还与患有自闭症的孩子合作过，他们希望了解一些事情，例如这个人是否对我感兴趣？我如何判断？因此他们可以通过这个伴侣机器人与它交谈，练习社交凝视，练习类似于“好的，看着我，但是现在不要一直盯着我看，因为那很奇怪，偶尔看别的地方。”你看哪儿不重要，只要看一会儿然后再看回来。他们可以通过练习来提高，因为很不幸，其他孩子不会与他们一起练习。
So you can imagine, you know, elderly with Alzheimer's, they're lonely, they're isolated, they could be staring at some screen, whatever, but you know, and they can look at pictures of their family, but you know, for how many hours a day. So this is a thing that can talk to them and talk to them about their family and always be there, always be pleasant, always be happy, never gets tired. It can tell jokes just the right vintage of jokes. We've done that.
所以你可以想象，你知道，老年人患有阿尔茨海默病，他们感到孤独，与世隔绝，可能会盯着某个屏幕发呆，但你知道，他们可以看家人的照片，但是一天有多少个小时呢。所以这是一种可以与他们交谈并谈论他们的家人的东西，它总是在那里，总是愉快，总是开心，永远不会感到疲倦。它会讲一些恰到好处的笑话。我们已经做到了。
The point is in everyone's lives, right, there are many challenges and there's a lot of expectation that other people will help us with these challenges while every person has their own challenges. And so here the idea was we want to create these socio-emotional, but physically embodied companions. They're not lovers. They're not friends in the sense of this is not your friend. And although people sometimes perceive them as friends. So they feel that certain niche in people's lives, but they're not replacing therapists. They're not replacing friends. They're not replacing teachers because they can't. That's not their purpose.
重点是在每个人生活中，对吧，都会遇到很多挑战，并且有很多期望别人能帮助我们应对这些挑战，尽管每个人都有自己的挑战。所以这里的想法是，我们想创造这些社会情感上的、具有身体实体的伴侣。它们不是情侣。它们不是你的朋友，不是你的朋友的意思。虽然有时候人们会认为它们是朋友。所以它们在人们生活中扮演着某种特定角色，但它们并不替代治疗师，也不替代朋友，也不替代教师，因为它们不能。这不是它们存在的目的。
Right. Absolutely. It's so interesting. We last week we spoke to Mustafa Suleiman who is doing a personal intelligence through not hardware, but software and talking about AI and how to your point that this is not a replacement for humans. This is for the millions of people who to your point don't have someone for them 24 hours a day.
没错。绝对是这样。这太有趣了。上周我们与穆斯塔法·苏莱曼进行了交流，他正在通过软件而不是硬件来进行个人智能开发，并讨论人工智能以及如何解决你提到的不是取代人类，而是为那些一天24小时都没有人照顾的数百万人提供帮助的问题。
And so you hit on this a little bit, but can you talk about why it's important for the physical embodiment of a robot to be there as opposed to just a screen or just a speaker? What is the importance of that actual robot versus just the software?
所以你稍微提到了这个问题，但是你能谈谈为什么一个机器人需要以物理实体形式存在，而不仅仅是一个屏幕或一个扬声器吗？相较于仅仅是软件，这个实际机器人的重要性是什么？
So there's been a very long debate about, you know, by people who are not in robotics and also people who are not in neuroscience, why we need physically embodied companions and social partners. And if anything is going to demonstrate to us why the after effects of the quarantine in the pandemic will. So we will see effects in early child development, in teen development, in adult isolation. We're seeing all of that. We can be fully connected through various social media. We can fully connect it, be fully connected through screens and video conferencing.
所以关于我们为什么需要具有实际身体的伴侣和社交伙伴，这个问题一直存在着一个很长时间的辩论，而这些辩论的参与者既不是从事机器人技术的人，也不是神经科学的人。如果有什么东西能向我们证明为什么隔离和流行病后遗症对早期儿童发展、青少年发展和成年人的隔离产生影响，那就是这个时刻了。我们正在看到这一切的影响。通过各种社交媒体，我们可以完全保持联系。我们可以通过屏幕和视频会议进行完全连接。
And yet what you're seeing is extremely increased rates of anxiety, depression, isolation, child development delays. Kids who missed one or two years by not being around their peers are now, you know, and their social development is two years delayed. This is happening because we humans are evolved to be social creatures. So we need from from day one, we need to look. You know, if we're sighted, we need to look at human faces. We need to see the smiles. We need to see the crinkled eyes, the Duchenne smile.
然而，你所看到的是焦虑、抑郁、孤立和儿童发展延迟的极高比率。那些因为不能与同龄人交往而错过了一两年的孩子，现在，你知道的，他们的社交发展也晚了两年。这是因为我们人类进化成为社交生物。所以，从第一天开始，我们就需要注重这一点。你知道的，如果我们有视力，我们需要看人脸。我们需要看到微笑，看到眼角的皱纹，那种杜氏笑。
We need to, we need that for feedback. And you know, back in the 60s, there were these wonderful experiments, or maybe slightly cruel and sad experiments, but they took baby monkeys and they put them on artificial monkey mothers, some that they had wonderful fur on them and others that they were just metal, but they had a bottle of milk. And what did the baby monkeys prefer? If we were just transactional creatures, we just go for the milk. But no, all the monkeys went to the furry mother, even if they were starving.
我们需要这个（反馈），这样我们才能得到反馈。你知道，在60年代，有一些非常有趣但也有些残忍和悲伤的实验。试验者们把小猴子放在人造母猴身边，有些母猴身上长着美丽的毛发，而其他一些母猴则完全由金属构成，但它们都有一瓶奶。这些小猴子更喜欢哪一个呢？如果我们只是简单的被交易驱动的动物，我们可能会直接选择奶。然而，事实是所有的猴子都去选择了那个有毛发的母猴，即使它们已经快饿死了。
We humans are fundamentally social creatures. We need social support around us. And by that, I mean really around us in the physical world. And there have been, I would say, thousands of studies in science to show this.
我们人类从根本上就是社交性的生物。我们需要周围的社交支持。而我所说的，是指在现实世界中确实存在的社交支持。科学界已经进行了成千上万的研究来证明这一点。
So we actually did a meta review. This is something we do in science, right? We look at all the studies and we do like a summary of it all statistically. And they show basically side by side comparisons. If I take a human of any age and have them compare a screen based interaction with a real robot interaction in the real world, the real robot interaction is going to make them retain, learn more, retain the information longer, and report enjoying it more.
所以我们实际上进行了一项元回顾。这是科学领域一种常见的做法，对于所有的研究我们都会统计性地进行总结。他们主要是展示相互对比的结果。如果我让任何年龄段的人比较在真实世界中基于屏幕的互动与真实机器人的互动，真实机器人的互动会使他们更加保留、更好地学习知识，保持更长时间，并且更加喜欢这种互动。
I mean, I have a friend who's an occupational therapist at a local elementary school. And I can imagine her being so much augmentation, amplification, positive things happening if she had a robot in her classroom to help with someone for students.
我是说，我有一个朋友是在当地小学担任职业治疗师的。我可以想象，如果她在教室中有一台机器人来帮助学生，会带来很多增强、放大和积极的事情。
We've actually found that after the initial stuff of talking about, for example, having these robots for kids with autism and therapists were worried they said, you're trying to replace therapists, not at all. But then they actually saw it from the other side. They said, oh my goodness, this is great. Because I spent like one hour or two hours a day with a particular child. And then I want them to practice things at home. And either the parents have to do it and parents have enough, you know, parents don't actually want to practice therapy with their kids. They'd like to just be parents, but they don't have the luxury of being parents, right? So now they also have to be therapists. So isn't in grand if you can have this robot that ends up playfully doing this stuff and then parents can be parents. So that's the vision. The vision is that it's complementing the ecosystem of human support, which is never perfect. As a parent, I will second that notion.
实际上我们发现，在谈论例如为自闭症儿童提供这些机器人时，治疗师担心会取代他们的角色。但实际上，他们从另一个角度看到了这个问题。他们说，哦天哪，这太好了。因为我每天花一到两个小时和一个特定的孩子在一起。然后我希望他们在家里练习这些东西。要么是家长要做这件事，但家长可能已经受够了，你知道的，他们并不真正想与孩子一起进行治疗练习。他们只想做父母，但却没有这个奢侈的条件，对吧？所以如果你能有这个机器人代替他们，进行一些有趣的活动，而父母可以做父母的角色，那不是很棒吗？这就是愿景。愿景是为人类支持生态系统提供补充，因为它从来都不完美。作为一个家长，我完全同意这个观点。
So this brings us to our story generated by Chachi BT. It's about a family with three generations under one roof. And it spotlights through the family members. There's Mr. Johnson. He's an 80 year old grandfather who needs help with his medication. Lisa is a 40 year old mom who needs support with preparing to repair a roof, an eight year old Ethan who needs assistance with his homework and getting to soccer practice. And so this robot steps in to support each of their needs.
这就引出了由Chachi BT创作的我们的故事。它讲述了一个三代同堂的家庭，并着重关注家庭成员。首先是约翰逊先生，他是一位八十岁的祖父，需要帮助来管理他的药物。接着是丽莎，她是一位四十岁的妈妈，需要支持来准备修理屋顶；还有八岁的伊桑，他需要在功课和足球训练上得到帮助。于是，这台机器人介入并为每个人的需求提供支持。
And so first of all, if you hate this story, that's fine. I didn't write it. You can critique it. But I want to ask like, what did you see in this story that you were like, oh, that's interesting. That could happen. That could be in our future. Or what was wrong, what seemed promising, what seemed way off. Like what are your reflections?
首先，如果你讨厌这个故事，没关系。我并不是作者。你可以对它进行批评。但我想问的是，你在这个故事中看到了什么让你觉得有趣的部分？它真的可能发生在未来吗？或者有哪些地方不对劲，哪些地方让人感到有希望，哪些地方完全不靠谱？你有什么看法？
Actually, I love the story. And in fact, you know, it's interesting. And in some ways, not surprising that this vision comes out because among other things I was part of a recent grant proposal in which we had a very similar vision, except it wasn't necessarily as one robot because it's more like a, because the state of the art now is that you will not at any time really soon have a robot that can do many physical things. But it can certainly in terms of intelligence talk to various different people. As long as it can uniquely recognize you, then it will be able to help you and talk to you.
实际上，我喜欢这个故事。而且事实上，你知道的，它很有趣。在某种程度上，这个愿景出现并不令人意外，因为在最近的一项拨款提案中，我曾参与其中，而我们有一个非常类似的愿景，只不过不一定是一个机器人，因为现在的技术水平并不会很快能够制造出一个可以执行许多物理任务的机器人。但它肯定可以以智能的方式与不同的人交流。只要它能够唯一地识别你，那么它就能够帮助你并与你交流。
And so I think that's very likely and very realistic and very needed. And so we really, we wrote a grant proposal in which we literally came up with a vision of a family, which is very much like in the story. So you know, you have the busy mom who is trying to take care of her elderly parents, but also her kids. And the kids are maybe having like one of these very, very common issues now, right? They might be suffering from anxiety, they might, you know, all this kind of stuff or bullying or something like that. So I would say that it's the story is spot on.
所以我认为这非常可能、非常现实，也非常需要。因此，我们真的撰写了一份拨款提案，其中我们详细描述了一个与故事非常相似的家庭愿景。你知道，有一个忙碌的母亲，她试图照料年迈的父母，同时还要照顾孩子们。而孩子们可能正面临现在非常常见的一些问题，比如焦虑、欺负等等。所以我可以说，这个故事非常贴切。
And then so what is the solution? The idea of having one robot, you see that in the movies, you see that in a lot of, you know, literature, it makes sense. It's kind of the butler notion that people had or a made notion. I'm not a huge fan of those because it puts a tremendous burden on this one entity in maybe a robot. But think about it. What if three of us are in the house at the same time and we all need something now? What, you know, who gets, you know, who gets to go first?
那么，有什么解决办法呢？在电影中、在许多文学作品中，都出现了拥有一个机器人的想法，这是合理的。这有点像人们以前对管家或仆人的概念。我对这些并不是非常喜欢，因为这会给这个机器人或许是一个实体带来巨大的负担。但是想象一下，如果我们三个人同时在房子里而且我们都现在需要某样东西，那么谁会优先得到满足呢？
Right. There's actually a whole debate about are we going to ultimately be creating this other race of servants, right? And I prefer to think of it as your buddy. And so it seems much more likely to me that the kid will have a buddy that they can play with and what the mom will have is something else, maybe kind of an, an assistant identity. So I think there are different versions of who feels what roles, but what does the future look like? Maybe people will be filling these roles and their robots will be doing something else. And I think it's just really important to keep thinking about this and not just drill down one path because, oh, gee, we can and not consider possible outcomes really, you know, a bit long term.
没错。实际上，我们是否最终会创造出这个其他人类的仆人，这是一个完整的辩论话题对吧？我更倾向于将其称为你的伙伴。因此，在我看来，孩子更有可能拥有一个可以一起玩耍的伙伴，而妈妈将拥有另外一种角色，也许是一种助理身份。所以我认为不同的人可能会扮演不同的角色，但未来会是什么样子呢？也许人们会担任这些角色，而他们的机器人将会从事其他事情。我认为重要的是要一直思考这个问题，而不仅仅固守一个方向，因为噢，我们可以这么做，而不考虑可能的后果，事实上，还是要考虑更长远的未来。
I love all that. I mean, this is part of the reason why, you know, I kind of erode impromptu is kind of human amplification and, and such. I'm actually quite bullish on the fact that we'll always figure out things to do because even if the robot was doing all the manufacturing, you know, we'll go out and play pickleball or, you know, or do other kinds of things because of that human human. That's the exact like kind of go touch the fur. Also why Mustafa and I, I'm very curious if you ever play with pie, kind of what your kind of thing is because it's the same thing. It's kind of like, how does it kind of help you in your life versus draw you away from it? And I think this also gets to, I completely agree with the whole embedded, you know, kind of keep you engaged in your life. Have you also thought about this in kind of VR and AR because, you know, there obviously we have this, there's been an ongoing discussion of metaverse and other kinds of things. I'm curious if you've thought about that environment as well as the real world one and what your reflections are between those.
我喜欢所有这些。我的意思是，这也是为什么我有点热衷于即兴表演的原因，因为它是人类的放大和增强。事实上，我对于我们总能找到事情做感到非常乐观，因为即使机器人负责所有制造工作，我们还是可以去打pickleball，或者做其他种类的事情，因为那就是人性。这也是为什么我和穆斯塔法很好奇，是否你玩过派（一种产品）？你对那种东西感到兴奋的原因是什么？因为这和派有些类似，它们都是如何帮助你的生活，而不是使你远离生活的呢？我认为这也与嵌入式的观点相吻合，它可以让你参与到你的生活中。你是否也考虑过虚拟现实和增强现实方面的问题呢？你是否思考过这个环境与现实世界之间的差异，以及你对它们的看法？
Indeed, you know, I said early on, I made this point that there's a big difference in how our brains perceive interacting with the screen versus interacting in the real world. Now if you go into virtual reality and the virtual reality environment and immersion is really well done, then you can almost trick your brain. So your brain feels like you really are interacting almost in a physical world. You don't have touch, which is important because touch is incredibly important. I mean, the lack of physical touch is a part of the loneliness epidemic that we have actually. So we are our brains are really wired for this physical experience. We want touch, we want smell. But I do think the metaverse is coming no matter what, but how soon it'll come and what economic bumps will happen along the road, whatever.
的确，你知道，我早就说过，我提出了这一点，我们的大脑对与屏幕互动和与真实世界互动有着很大的区别。现在，如果你进入虚拟现实和虚拟现实环境，并且这种沉浸感非常好，你几乎可以欺骗你的大脑。因此，你的大脑感觉你几乎在与真实世界互动。虽然你无法触摸，触摸是非常重要的，因为触摸在我们实际上的孤独流行病中是非常重要的一部分。因此，我们的大脑真的渴望这种身体体验。我们想要触摸，我们想要嗅觉。但我确实认为，无论如何，元宇宙都会到来，但它会在多久之后到来，沿路会遇到什么经济障碍，什么的，还不得而知。
The issue is that our physical bodies are not just vessels. They are how we experience the world. The science of embodiment shows us that. That's why things like mindfulness work so well, because, you know, when you're in the moment and you're experiencing things, you're happier. Oh, lo and behold, how come? Well, that's what we're built to do. We're built to do in this experiences in this physical world. And so that's why I think there are a lot of wonderful things you can do in a metaverse kind of virtual reality. The things that excite me about it are, for example, you could teach tolerance, right? If you want to understand what it's like to be an elderly person, you can be put in an environment that's immersive and maybe put on a suit and you can really feel like you're in an 85 year old. And that is going to in 30 minutes make you understand and possibly, let's say, be a better engineer for people who are 85 than any amount of books you can read and so on. I'm excited about that. People have done virtual reality training for understanding the climate crisis and just like putting yourself in various places and experiencing it. Fantastic. We can really expand our space of experiences. And yes, we can democratize experience where now everyone can go to Everest, right? But the downside is if everyone can go to Everest in VR and no one goes, well, maybe that's better for Everest, right? Like let's protect Everest. But some other things, right?
问题在于我们的身体不仅仅是容器，它们是我们体验世界的方式。体现学科告诉我们这一点。这就是为什么诸如正念之类的事物效果如此好，因为你知道，在当下的时刻，当你体验事物时，你会更快乐。哦，你会惊讶吗？为什么呢？那是因为这是我们的本能。我们天生适应在这个物理世界中体验事物。因此，我认为在“元宇宙”类虚拟现实中存在许多精彩的事物。我对它的兴奋之处在于，例如，你可以教会人们容忍，对吗？如果你想要了解老年人的感受，你可以置身于一个沉浸式环境中，穿上一套服装，让自己真正感受到像85岁的人一样。仅仅30分钟的时间就可以让你理解，并且可能会让你成为一个更好的为85岁人设计的工程师，这比你阅读任何书籍都要有效果。对此我感到兴奋。人们已经利用虚拟现实培训来了解气候危机，通过将自己置身于不同的地方并亲身体验。这太棒了。我们真正可以拓展我们的体验空间。是的，我们可以使体验民主化，现在每个人都可以去珠穆朗玛峰，对吗？但是不利之处在于，如果每个人都可以在虚拟现实中去珠穆朗玛峰，而没有人亲身去过，那么也许这对珠穆朗玛峰来说更好，对吧？让我们保护珠穆朗玛峰。但其他一些事物呢？
If you never get out of your house, so it's actually really exciting. There's a whole new field that just arose in the last two years. And I just know because one of my PhD students was literally doing the work, Tom Greschel. That's why I know this is how we luck out. We professors, we seem to know everything, but really we just have a lot of smart students.
如果你从不出门，所以这实际上非常令人兴奋。在过去的两年里，出现了一个全新的领域。而且我之所以知道，是因为我的一个博士生，汤姆·格雷舍尔，正是在从事这项工作。这就是我们的运气所在。我们教授似乎什么都知道，但实际上我们只是有很多聪明的学生。
So there's a new field called VAMHRI and it really stands for virtual, virtual and mixed reality for human robot interaction or human machine interaction. So it's really interesting, right? You can put what I love is augmented reality. So augmented reality is the idea that you can put lightweight goggles like glasses. Our perception of the world is augmented. We could be augmented in a share way so you and I can now have a shared world and we can be in this world, but also this world is much more interesting because we have the shared world between us. Now that's exactly what's happening with humans and robots.
所以有一个新的领域叫做VAMHRI，实际上它是虚拟的、虚拟和混合现实与人机交互或人机交互的缩写。这真的很有趣，对吧？你可以理解我最喜欢的是增强现实。增强现实是指你可以戴着轻便的眼镜，我们对世界的感知会被增强。我们可以在共享的方式下进行增强，所以你和我现在可以拥有一个共享的世界，我们可以在这个世界中，而且这个世界因为我们之间的共享而变得更加有趣。现在，这正是人类和机器人之间正在发生的事情。
A human user can wear these lightweight glasses and can see things that the robot can also see. And the beauty of that is we humans experience the world in much richer ways than robots do. But when we create the shared world, this mixed reality world, now the robot can experience so many more things. And so for example, we had kids playing with physical robots in a shared world in which there were these floating code blocks and they were coding. They were moving the blocks around them. They were pushing them and shoving them and throwing them. And can you imagine? That's pretty fun. Like how fun is coding? Usually not this fun. These kids were having a great time. There were fifth graders. They were having a great fun. But the most important thing is later we test them on their coding skills and they're way better coders.
一个人使用者可以戴上这些轻巧的眼镜，就能够看到机器人也能看到的东西。而美妙之处在于，我们人类以比机器人更加丰富的方式体验世界。但当我们创造共享的世界，即混合现实世界时，机器人则能够体验更多的事物。比如，我们让孩子们在共享世界中玩耍，他们与实体机器人一起使用漂浮的代码块进行编程。他们将这些块围绕自己移动、推动、扔掷，你能想象吗？这相当有趣。编程有多有趣？通常不会像这样。这些孩子玩得非常开心。他们是五年级的学生。他们玩得非常开心。但最重要的是，后来我们测试了他们的编程技能，结果他们成为了更加优秀的编程者。
By playing, by integrating play and freedom in what they were doing, they were not afraid. They were more creative. They were more curious. They learned way more. And so this is just an interesting way to think about imagine learning in this augmented world with companions. And so for example, you know, you go to school, you interact with your friends, you do all the stuff, and then you come home and you interact with your learning buddy in this interesting augmented world and you're not missing out on the physical experience, but you get this extra layer. So I think augmented reality is going to do a lot to improve our experiences without leaving our full brains behind. I worry about that in complete immersion.
通过玩耍，通过在他们所做的事情中融入游戏和自由，他们不再害怕。他们更有创造力，更好奇。他们学到了更多知识。因此，这只是一种有趣的方式来想象在这个增强现实的世界中与同伴一起学习。举个例子，你去学校和朋友们互动，做各种事情，然后你回家，在这个有趣的增强现实世界中与你的学习伙伴互动，你不会错过现实体验，而会得到额外的层次。因此，我认为增强现实将大大改善我们的经历，而不会放弃我们的全部大脑。我担心在完全沉浸中会有这样的问题。
One of the things that your answer reminded me and kind of a follow up is that you're one of the very few people I know who are asked the better verse goes immediately to here's how we can increase empathy, right? Like empathy for old people, etc. And it reminded me of one of the questions that I had for you, which is what kind of learnings around how do builders and designers, like what are the things to really increase empathy? Like what would be kind of like a couple of bullet points to just, you know, to just kind of go? Like here is what's really important for getting this empathetic interaction.
你回答的其中一件事让我想到并作为追问的是，你是我认识的为数不多的那种马上就能想到如何增加同理心的人之一，对吗？就像对老年人的同理心，等等。这让我想起了我对你有一个问题，即建筑师和设计师在如何增加同理心方面有哪些学习? 有什么关键点可以简单列举出来，以便我们追求这种同理互动？
That's a really good and hard question. And so I'll try to get it right, but they're bigger experts on this. But at least I would say two things that have been shown to work well. So one is, and we all know this is listening, right? So asking a lot of questions like, how do you feel? How did it go? And then not solving problems. So empathy is all about tell me about you. It's about you. And then the other part is using feeling oriented language.
这是一个非常好而且有难度的问题。所以我会尽力回答，但是他们在这方面更专业。但是至少有两件被证明很有效的事情。第一件是，我们都知道这个，就是倾听，对吧？所以多问一些问题，比如，你感觉怎么样？这次怎么样？然后不解决问题。所以共情就是让对方告诉我关于你自己的事情。它只关乎你。然后另一部分是使用与感觉相关的语言。
This was actually very surprising to us. We ran a study to see if it was okay for robots to talk about feelings because remember, they don't have any and we can pretend that they do, but they really don't. They don't. And so is it okay for a robot to say, I know how you feel because it really doesn't. And I was actually surprised and this is good because we should as research would be surprised. If I ever never surprised, then it feels like I'm biasing my studies. I was surprised, I actually thought that because I would feel like if a robot said to me, oh, I know how you feel, I'd be like, do you really? Because I don't think you do.
这对我们实际上是非常令人惊讶的。我们进行了一项研究，看看机器人是否可以谈论感受，因为请记住，它们实际上并没有感受，我们可以假装它们有，但它们真的没有。它们没有。那么，机器人说“我知道你的感受”是否可以接受，因为它实际上并不了解。令我惊讶的是，这其实是件好事，因为作为研究人员，我们应该会感到惊讶。如果我从未感到惊讶，那感觉就像我在偏袒我的研究。我感到惊讶，实际上我曾认为，如果一个机器人对我说“我知道你的感受”，我会想，你真的知道吗？因为我不认为你知道。
But actually people like it whenever a robot says, well, how did that feel at all? I know how you feel. And we were dealing with a group of users also who were actually suffering from anxiety. And then we were dealing with users who also were grappling with recovery from cancer. They actually liked the robot companion referring to understanding their feelings. So feelings oriented language really comes across as empathetic and is well received.
实际上，当机器人说出“那感觉如何？”、“我知道你的感受”这样的话时，人们真的喜欢。我们与一些用户打交道时发现，他们确实处于焦虑之中。我们还与一些康复中的癌症患者进行交流。他们实际上喜欢机器人伴侣能理解他们的感受。因此，情感导向的语言给人一种共鸣的感觉，并且受到欢迎。
And people often think intuitively that if you have a supportive agent that is supportive consistently, then you will get bored of that and you won't like it. But I don't know, think about humans in your life. Oh my gosh, I have this parent slash friend who is always supportive. Oh, I'm so bored with that. I don't want that anymore. Right? Who doesn't want that anymore? So the point is if you have an empathetic agent that is consistently empathetic, it just cannot be wrote repetition. But if it is meaningfully empathetic, people do not get bored with that. Everybody needs support. Totally.
人们通常直觉地认为，如果你有一个持续支持你的代理人，你会对此感到厌烦，不喜欢。但是我不知道，想想你生活中的人类。哇哦，我有一个始终支持我的父母/朋友。哦，我对此感到无聊。我不再想要那个了。对吗？谁还不想要呢？所以重点是，如果你有一个有感同身受的代理人，始终如一地对你感同身受，那就不会无聊。每个人都需要支持。完全正确。
Oh, Maya, we could talk for so much longer, but we want to get to our rapid fire questions. So you actually already mentioned some movies that I also love, but is there a movie song or book that fills you with optimism for the future? So Wally, actually, I'm going to go back to that. But Wally does fill me with optimism because Wally actually does a lot to show some bad things that people can get themselves into by not planning ahead. And then the way that we are infinitely malleable as a species. So we can do better and be better and soak in the machines that we create. So I am going to still go back to Wally. But if you want another robot movie, which is more fun than maybe optimistic, but I do like robot in Frank, that's an often overlooked robotics movie. And I think it's quite well done, really great acting, great understanding of what robots are like. It has a scene in which two robots come together and instead of some kind of taking over the world, one says, I'm operating at expectation level. And the other one says me as well. And then they just go their separate ways. I thought that was good.
哦，玛雅，我们本可以聊得更久一些，但我们想要问些快速发问的问题。你已经提到了一些我也喜欢的电影，但有没有一部电影、一首歌或一本书能让你充满对未来的乐观呢？关于这个问题，事实上，《机器人总动员》给我带来了乐观的感觉，因为它展示了如果不提前计划，人们可能会陷入一些糟糕的境地。而我们作为一个物种，我们是无限可塑的。所以我们可以做得更好，变得更好，并充分利用我们创造的机器。所以我还是会坚持选择《机器人总动员》。但如果你想要另一部关于机器人的电影，可能更有趣而不那么乐观的话，我喜欢《机器人与弗兰克》。那是一部被常常忽视的关于机器人的电影。我认为它制作得非常出色，演技很棒，对机器人的理解也很深入。电影中有一个场景，两个机器人走到一起，而不是试图统治世界，其中一个机器人说：“我的运作符合预期水平。”而另一个机器人说：“我也是。”然后它们就各自走开了。我觉得这个场景很好。
Where do you see progress from momentum outside of your industry that inspires you? Yeah, no, that's actually, I'm actually really, really excited. And I feel like if I had taken a different path, I would have loved to have been in bioengineering this intersection now of biology and engineering where we're looking at things like everything from on the one hand, like prosthetics. Okay, that's obvious. That's kind of even closer to what I do. That, you know, the restoring vision, restoring physical ability like this. And this whole mush where we're going from genes to cells to physical ability. So even, you know, gene therapies and things like that, I'm extremely excited about this. And I think there are areas there with AI that will actually, you know, just really make huge impacts. And so that is, you know, getting into the whole area of personalized medicine, where we're going away from one size fits all. Oh my God, we ran this trial. And now we have to use this. And I said, it's like, this is, we're going to understand you as a human so thoroughly that we can really not only help you with a specific issue that you're having, you know, cancer or something horrible like that, but also we can predict and anticipate and hopefully prevent that's huge. So the field of medicine is just so exciting. I could see an alternate reality in which I do that, but I'm good with what I'm doing. I love that personalized medicine is so fascinating and could make such a huge impact.
你在自己行业以外的动能中看到哪些能激发你灵感的进展？是的，我真的非常非常兴奋。我觉得如果我选择了不同的道路，我可能会喜欢从事生物工程这个交叉领域，这是生物学和工程学的交汇点。我们正在研究各种事物，例如义肢，这是显而易见的，这与我所做的更加接近。这涉及到恢复视力、恢复身体功能等等。我对从基因到细胞到身体能力的整个过程都非常兴奋。甚至，基因疗法和其他相关领域，我对此非常激动。我认为在与人工智能结合的领域，会产生巨大的影响。我们正走向个性化医学，摆脱了一刀切的模式。我觉得这就像是我们将深入了解你作为一个人，以至于我们不仅能够帮助你解决具体问题，比如癌症之类的可怕疾病，而且还能预测、预防，这是非常重要的。医学领域真的很令人兴奋。在另一个现实中，我可以看到自己从事医学，但我对我目前的工作很满意。我喜欢个性化医学，它非常迷人，可能会产生巨大影响。
And so our final question, can you leave us with a final thought on what it's possible to achieve in the next 15 years, if everything goes humanities way, and then what's the first step to get there?
因此，最后一个问题是，如果一切朝人类的方式发展，未来15年内我们可能实现什么，并且要实现这一切的第一步是什么？
不论怎样，我的最后的想法是，未来15年内，如果一切顺利，人类有可能实现令人难以置信的进步和成就。我们有机会解决全球性的挑战，例如气候变化、贫困、疾病和教育等问题。通过科技的进步和全球合作，我们可以改变人类的命运，并为新一代创造更加美好的世界。
然而，要实现这一切，我们需要迈出第一步。这个第一步是加强全球合作，建立包容性和可持续的发展计划。我们需要共同努力，摒弃分歧和冲突，共同解决全球性的挑战。同时，我们需要投资于教育和创新，培养下一代的领导力和创造力。只有这样，我们才能共同实现人类的梦想，创造一个更加繁荣和和平的世界。
I thought about this and he worries me. This worries me because I think it's very rare that everything goes the humanities way for all of humanity. I want to be optimistic, but I'm a bit concerned about the particular place we're in with AI because it's going to disrupt the economy in a massive way and it could be really positive, but it may not be.
我思考了一下，他让我感到担忧。之所以担忧，是因为我认为人类的一切都顺利进行很罕见。我希望能保持乐观，但AI所带来的问题让我有些担忧，因为它将以巨大的方式打破经济，这可能是非常积极的，但也可能不是。
So I would really like us to like do some serious thinking. That's not the same as I'm not necessarily saying we pause, but I will say one thing, which is in which you asked, but I'll say here's the thing we should do. The big tech folks open AI, Google, all the other folks, they need to not just say that they they've welcome regulation. They need to tell us what needs to be regulated because they know the best.
所以我真的希望我们能认真思考一下。这并不代表我一定要说我们暂停，但我要说一件事，就是你问的那个，但我要说我们应该做的是。大型科技公司OpenAI、谷歌和其他公司，他们不仅需要说他们欢迎监管，还需要告诉我们需要监管什么，因为他们最清楚。
It is not the job of academics and it is most definitely not the job of politicians because they have no clue. So the people who are creating technology need to be responsible for also suggesting specific regulation. I understand this will be super biased and they're obviously, but that's everybody's biased. It is their responsibility if we do that because I know on the inside there are a lot of really responsible folks who care, but they aren't proposing what should be done. I want them to work with us. Let's say in academia because we can't do this alone.
这不是学者的任务，当然也不是政治家的任务，因为他们对此一无所知。因此，创造技术的人也需要负责提出具体的监管措施。我知道这会带有很大的偏见，但每个人都有偏见。如果我们这样做，这是他们的责任，因为我知道内部有很多真心关心这个问题的负责任的人，但他们没有提出应该采取的措施。我希望他们与我们合作，比如在学术界，因为我们无法独自完成这件事。
So I think if we do that now, if we think very hard about how to put proper guardrails around by very people who are creating the systems, that's when we can end up somewhere really much, much better. That's the step in the right direction is government academics and industry all working together to be inclusive and think about everyone for AI. I'll take it.
所以我认为如果现在我们这样做，如果我们非常努力地思考如何为正在创建这些系统的人们设立适当的防护壁垒，那么我们就能够达到一个更好、更好的地方。在AI领域，政府、学术界和工业界共同努力，全面思考每个人的利益，这是朝着正确方向迈出的一步。我支持这种做法。
In terms of vision and I don't think it's 15 years, but in terms of this grand vision, there's always this discussion about like, oh, well, people need to be taken care of and people will take care of people while technology will do all the other things. And the part I don't know is there's a big trench in between where we are now and that. And I don't know how we get through that trench, right? Because you cannot just take 60 year old people who have worked in like, let's say, food delivery with trucks and suddenly make them caregivers for people with Alzheimer's. So what do you do? How do you transition to get into eventually this other world in which it would be fantastic to think that we have a lot of leisure time and we're taking care of one another and machines are doing all the crappy stuff plus and then some.
从愿景轮回方面来看，我不认为这需要15年，但是就这个宏伟愿景而言，总是会有关于“人们需要被照顾，人们将互相照料而技术会做其他事情”的讨论。而我不明白的是，我们现在的状况和那个愿景之间有一个巨大的鸿沟，我不知道我们如何跨越这个鸿沟，对吧？因为你不能突然让那些在食品运送和卡车行业工作的60岁人成为患有阿尔茨海默病的人的护理人员。那么你该怎么办？如何过渡到最终进入另一个世界，在那个世界里我们可以有很多闲暇时间相互照顾，而机器会做所有糟糕的事情以及更多。
And so I want us to think about that trench, like how are we going to get through that trench? If we can figure out bridging that thing, then we can get to the other side, which is going to be really awesome, I hope. I love it. Figure out how to transition to more care.
所以，我希望我们思考一下那个壕沟，比如我们要如何通过那个壕沟呢？如果我们能够找到建立桥梁的方法，那么我们就能够走向另一边，而那里可能会非常棒，我希望如此。我喜欢它。找出如何过渡到更多关心的方法。
Maya, thank you so much for being here. It was eye opening and I loved hearing about robots. Really wonderful.
Maya，非常感谢你的到来。这真是开阔了眼界，我很喜欢听你谈论机器人。真是太棒了。
Oh, thank you. And thank you for asking me such wonderful questions. I don't get to talk about this often, so this is great. That was super exciting. It isn't often that you talk to people who are very deeply engineering sophisticated, who are solving problems like engineering. And the engineering problem they're focused on is empathy and is the amplification of humanity through that. So as you noted, Ariana, on the pod, we're going to talk to her for another hour or two and completely lost track of the time. And to your point, she literally was using the same words as Mustafa. And so it was so interesting to hear someone working on software and AI and large language models talking about empathy, how we can have people as therapists, how we're definitely not replacing humans. This is an addition for this is a compliment. And Maya was saying the same exact thing. She was just talking about hardware and she was talking about robots and she was talking about how we can have them sort of present in our everyday 3D lives. And I thought it was especially interesting when she wove in the AR and VR and how that actually when you look at people's brain scans does give the same stimulation at times as in person. And so that could be such an iteration on the field of empathy and helping folks out, having therapists and coaches and all that stuff. Well, that's definitely one of the things we're going to get both by her robotics and by various of the AI, chatbots, pie, others, which is we're going to actually be running a what is the real typology of how you have empathetic interactions, compassion and interactions, understanding interactions. And we're going to begin to understand this in a much broader way.
哦，谢谢。还要感谢你问我这些很棒的问题。我很少有机会谈论这个，所以这很好。那真是太令人激动了。很少有机会和专注于解决工程问题的工程师们交谈，他们对于工程学有着深入的了解。而他们关注的工程问题是关于共情和通过共情来增强人性。正如你在播客中提到的，我们打算再和她聊上一个小时或两个小时，完全没有了时间的概念。而且正如你所说，她实际上使用了和穆斯塔法相同的措辞。所以听到一个从事软件和人工智能以及大型语言模型研究的人谈论共情，谈论我们可以让人们作为治疗师存在，谈论我们绝对不是要取代人类，而是作为一种补充。而玛雅也在说同样的事情。她在谈论硬件，她在谈论机器人，她在谈论我们如何让它们在我们日常的三维生活中存在。当她把增强现实和虚拟现实结合在一起，并且指出这实际上在人们的脑部扫描中产生了与面对面的相同刺激时，我觉得这尤其有趣。因此，这可能是共情领域的一个新步骤，可以帮助人们，拥有治疗师和教练等。而这也是我们将通过她的机器人和各种人工智能、聊天机器人等来实现的，我们将真正了解如何进行共情互动、同理心互动和理解互动。我们将从更广泛的角度开始理解这一切。
And you know, I think her neurologist point was kind of as simple as, you know, empathy is as empathy does. You know, I thought that that was, you know, like, well, that's a very important lesson to remember. I mean, if you'd asked me before this episode, can a robot be empathetic? I would have said, I was really not like that has to do with intent that has to do, you know, XYZ.
而且你知道的，我觉得她的神经学家朋友想表达的是，同理心就是同理心。我觉得这是一个非常重要的教训。我是说，如果在这一集之前有人问我，机器人能有同理心吗？我会说，我真的觉得那与意图有关，与诸如XYZ之类的因素有关。
And it's like, right, well, actually, all that matters is the person who's feeling it. And if you are a stroke victim and this robot can, you know, perform tasks that are empathetic to you, then that's incredible. And also, you know, she talked about so many times, it's like the classic, you know, teach a man to fish tail, but like, we're not doing anyone a service for certain things when we're just doing everything for them and we certainly know that when you have five, six and seven year olds, but it's also true as people age or whatever it might be.
然后就像是，对，实际上，唯一重要的是感受到这种情感的人。如果你是一名中风患者，而这个机器人能够对你产生共鸣并完成一些任务，那就太不可思议了。而且，她也多次谈到，就像那句传统的教人捕鱼的故事一样，但有时当我们为别人做所有的事情时，并没有为某些事情做到实质性的帮助，而我们当然知道当你面对五、六岁或七岁的孩子时。但这同样适用于年龄增长或其他情况的人们。
And how do we use these robots to help people help themselves? How do we use these robots to amplify what everyone wants to be doing? And again, like takeaway, the drudgery, but for the stuff that we want to be doing. So for our own independence, how wonderful to have someone right there with us helping us along on that journey. And it makes sense that she's starting with the most needful, whether it's, you know, children on the spectrum or injured or people who experience some kind of disability, maybe recovery, because that's obviously the most important thing to show the lens of it.
我们如何利用这些机器人帮助人们自助？我们如何利用这些机器人来放大每个人想要做的事情？再次，就像外卖一样，减少乏味的事情，但增加我们想要做的事情。因此，对于我们自己的独立性来说，有人在旁边帮助我们，这是多么美妙的事情。有人在旁边帮助我们完成这段旅程是合理的，而且从她开始关注最需要帮助的人，无论是自闭症患者、受伤者还是经历某种残疾或恢复的人群，因为这显然是最重要的事情，要从不同的角度展示。
I was super interested as that work also broadens out to Susie and Joe average. One of the, you know, one of the questions that we had on our long question list was about commercialization and was about scale. And you know, how does she take that from, you know, in the lab or helping a few folks to sort of broad adoption and who are the future customers? And so, you know, we'll have to have her on the pot again because we, you know, in a year or two, we got to hear about how that scale is working. So I'll be interested to watch the space.
我对这项工作非常感兴趣，因为它也涉及到普通人苏茜和乔的利益。我们在长长的问题列表中有一个问题就是关于商业化和规模化的问题。她如何将这项工作从实验室或帮助一些人扩展到更广泛的应用，并且未来的客户是谁？所以，我们将不得不再次邀请她参加我们的节目，因为在一年或两年后，我们想听听规模化的进展情况。我很期待观察这个领域的发展。
Me too. Possible. It's produced by Wonder Media Network, hosted by me, Reid Hoffman and RA Fingar. Our showrunner is Sean Young. Possible is produced by Edie Allard and Sarah Schlee. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer and editor. Dennis Collins. Professor bootyred Elster. But you can talk a little bit about what deals with the technology and art or a technology in particular.
我也是。没问题。这是由Wonder Media Network制作的，由我，Reid Hoffman和RA Fingar主持。我们的总制片人是Sean Young。Possible由Edie Allard和Sarah Schlee制作。Jenny Kaplan是我们的执行制片人和编辑。Dennis Collins. 肯定还有Elster教授。但你可以谈谈它是如何处理技术和艺术，或者特定的技术。