Benjamin Netanyahu: Israel, Palestine, Power, Corruption, Hate, and Peace | Lex Fridman Podcast #389

We should never, and I never, sit aside and say, oh, they're just threatening to destroy us. They won't do it. If somebody threatens to eliminate you, as Iran is doing today, and as Hitler did then, and people discounted it, well, if somebody threatens to annihilate, well, take them seriously, and act to prevent it early on. Don't let them have the means to do so, because that may be too late.

我们永远不能坐视不管，也从来没有坐视不管过，说“哦，他们只是威胁要毁灭我们，他们不会这样做。”如果有人威胁要消灭你，就像伊朗现在正在做的，就像希特勒当年所做的那样，而人们不予理睬，好吧，如果有人威胁要消灭你，那就要认真对待，并采取行动来尽早阻止。不要让他们拥有实施这种威胁的手段，因为那可能会为时已晚。

The following is a conversation with Benjamin Netanyahu. Prime Minister of Israel, currently serving his sixth term in office. He's one of the most influential, powerful, and controversial men in the world, leading a right-wing coalition government at the center of one of the most intense and long-lasting conflicts in crises in human history.

以下是与本杰明·内塔尼亚胡的对话。他是以色列总理，目前正在担任第六个任期。他是世界上最有影响力、权力和争议的人之一，领导着一个右翼联合政府，处于人类历史上最激烈和持久的冲突和危机之中。

As we spoke, and as I speak now, large-scale protests are breaking out all over Israel over this government's proposed judicial reform that seeks to weaken the Supreme Court in a bold accumulation of power. Given the current intense political battles in Israel, our previous intention to speak for three hours was adjusted to one hour for the time being, but we agreed to speak again for much longer in the future.

正如我们谈话时所讨论的，以及我现在所说的，在以色列各地，大规模的抗议活动正在爆发，反对政府提出的试图削弱最高法院、积累大量权力的司法改革方案。鉴于以色列当前激烈的政治斗争，我们之前计划的三小时谈话已被暂时调整为一小时，但我们同意在未来的讨论中再次进行更长时间的交流。

I will also interview people who harshly disagree with the words spoken in this conversation. I will speak with other world leaders, with religious leaders, with historians and activists, and with people who have lived and have suffered through the pain of war, destruction, and loss that stoke the fires of anger and hate in their heart.

我还将采访那些对此次谈话中所言之词持强烈反对意见的人。我将与其他世界领导人、宗教领袖、历史学家、活动家以及那些曾经生活并经历过战争、毁灭和损失之痛的人交谈，他们的心中燃起了愤怒和仇恨之火。

For this, I will travel anywhere, no matter how dangerous. If there's any chance, it may help add to understanding and love in the world. I believe in the power of conversation, to do just this, to remind us of our common humanity.

为此，无论多么危险，我愿意去任何地方旅行。只要有机会，它可能有助于世界上的理解和爱。我相信对话的力量，可以做到这一点，提醒我们我们共同的人性。

I know I'm underqualified and underskilled for these conversations, so I will often fall short and I will certainly get attacked, derided, and slandered. But I will always turn the other cheek and use these attacks to learn, to improve, and no matter what, never give into cynicism. This life, this world of ours, is too beautiful not to keep trying, trying to do some good and whatever way each of us knows how. I love you all. This is the Lex Friedman podcast.

虽然我知道我的资历和技能不足以参与这些对话，所以我经常会犯错误，肯定会受到攻击、嘲笑和诋毁。但我会始终宽容待人，并利用这些攻击来学习，改进自己，无论如何都不会沦为冷嘲热讽的人。这个生活，这个世界太美好了，我们不能停止尝试，试图以自己所知道的方式做一些好事。我爱你们所有人。这就是 Lex Friedman 的播客节目。

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Benjamin Netanyahu.

为了支持它，请查看描述中的赞助商。亲爱的朋友们，现在请听本杰明·内塔尼亚胡。

You're loved by many people here in Israel in the world, but you're also hated by many. In fact, I think you may be one of the most hated men in the world. So if there's a young man or a young woman listening to this right now, who have such hate in their heart, what can you say to them to one day turn that hate into love?

你在以色列和全世界都受到许多人的爱戴，但也有很多人憎恨你。事实上，我认为你可能是世界上最受憎恨的人之一。因此，如果现在有一个年轻的男子或女子正在倾听，内心充满了这样的憎恨，你能对他们说些什么，让他们有一天将这种憎恨转化为爱呢？ 尝试亲切易懂翻译： 在以色列和世界各地，有许多人深深地爱戴着你，但也有很多人憎恨你。实际上，我认为你可能是世界上最受憎恨的人之一。所以，如果现在有一个年轻的男孩或女孩正在倾听，他们内心充满了这样的仇恨，你有什么话对他们说，以便有一天能够将这种仇恨转化为爱呢？

I disagree with the premise of your question. I think I have enjoyed a very broad support around the world. There are certain corners in which we have this animosity that you describe, and it sort of permeates in some of the newspapers and news organs and so on, in the United States, but it certainly doesn't reflect the broad support that I have. I just gave an interview on an Iranian channel, 16 million viewers. I gave another one. I just did a little video a few years ago, 25 million viewers from Iran. Certainly no hate there. I have to tell you, not from the regime, okay? And when I go around the world, and I've been around the world, people want to hear what we have to say. What I have to say is a leader of Israel, whom they respect increasingly as a rising power in the world. So I disagree with that. And the most important thing that goes against what you said is the respect that we receive from the Arab world and the fact that we've made four historic peace agreements with Arab countries. And they made it with me. They didn't make it with anyone else. And I respect them and they respect me and probably more to come. So I think the premise is wrong, that's all.

我不同意你问题的前提。我认为我在世界各地都得到了广泛的支持。确实有一些地方存在你所描述的敌意，并且一些美国的报纸和新闻媒体等也渗透了这种气氛，但这绝对不能代表我得到了广泛的支持。我刚刚在一个伊朗频道上进行了一次采访，有1600万观众。我还参与了另一次采访。几年前，我发布了一个小视频，在伊朗有2500万观众。那里绝对没有仇恨存在，我必须告诉你，而且这并不是来自于政权，好吗？当我周游世界时，人们都想听听我们有什么话要说。作为以色列的领导人，我的发言受到了越来越多人尊敬，因为他们把我们视为世界上一个崛起的大国。所以我不同意这一观点。而且最重要的是，与你所说的情况相矛盾的是，我们在阿拉伯世界获得了尊重，并且与四个阿拉伯国家签署了历史性的和平协议。而且他们是和我达成的协议，而不是别人。我尊重他们，他们也尊重我，可能还会有更多的合作。所以我认为这个前提是错误的，就是这样。

Well, there's a lot of love. Yes, a lot of leaders are collaborating. Respect, I said.

好吧，这世上有很多爱。是的，很多领导者正在合作。我说的是尊重。

No, no, no. Okay, all right. Well, it's a spectrum. But there is people who don't have good things to say about Israel, who do have hate in their heart for Israel. And what can you say to those people?

不，不，不。好的，好吧。嗯，这是一个谱系。但是有些人对以色列没有好话，心中对以色列充满了仇恨。对于这些人，你能说些什么呢？

Well, I think they don't know very much. I think they're guided by a lot of ignorance. They don't know about Israel. They don't know that Israel is a stellar democracy, that it happens to be one of the most advanced societies on the planet that what Israel develops, helps humanity in every field in medicine and agriculture and the environment and telecoms and talk about AI in a minute, but changing the world for the better and spreading this among six continents.

嗯，我认为他们并不了解很多。我认为他们受许多无知所指导。他们不了解以色列。他们不知道以色列是一个卓越的民主国家，也是地球上最先进的社会之一。以色列在医药、农业、环境和电信等各个领域的发展，对于人类来说都是有帮助的。等一下再谈谈人工智能，以色列正在为改善世界局势，将这种发展在六大洲上推广。

We've sent rescue teams more than any other country in the world and we're one tenth of one percent of the world's population. But when there's an earthquake or a devastation in Haiti or in the Philippines as well as there, when there's an earthquake devastating earthquake in Turkey, Israel was there. When there's something in Nepal, Israel is there and it's the second country. It's the second country after, in one case India or after another case in the United States, Israel is there, tiny Israel is a benefactor to all of humanity.

我们向世界上任何其他国家派遣援助队伍的次数都超过了且我们只占世界人口的千分之一。但是当海地或菲律宾发生地震或灾难时，以及土耳其发生毁灭性的地震，以色列总是在那里提供援助。当尼泊尔发生灾害时，以色列也是第二个到达的国家。它在印度或在美国等其他情况下都是紧随其后的第二个国家，微小的以色列成为全人类的捐助者。

So your student of history, if I can just linger on that philosophical notion of hate, that part of human nature, if you look at World War II, what do you learn from human nature, from the rise of the Third Reich and the rise of somebody like Hitler and the hate, the permeates that. Well, what I've learned is that you have to nip bad things in the bud. You have to, there's a Latin term that says, upstuck, prickly, stop bad things when they're small. And the deliberate hatred, the incitement of hatred against one community, demonization, deligitimization that goes with it is a very dangerous thing. And that happened in the case of the Jews. What started with the Jews soon spread to all of humanity. So what we've learned is that's what we should, we should never, and I never set aside and say, oh, they're just threatening to destroy us, they won't do it. If somebody threatens to eliminate you, as Iran is doing today, and as Hitler did then and people discounted it, well, if somebody threatens to annihilate, well, take them seriously and act to prevent it early on. Don't let them have the means to do so because that may be too late.

作为一个历史学家，如果我可以稍微讨论一下仇恨这个哲学概念，人类本性的一部分，如果看看第二次世界大战，你从人性和第三帝国的崛起、像希特勒这样的人物以及蔓延其中的仇恨中学到了什么？嗯，我学到了人们必须早点制止不良因素。有一个拉丁词汇叫做“upstuck”，意为当坏事还很小的时候就要尽快制止。对一个社群进行恶意仇恨、妖魔化和非法化的煽动是非常危险的。在犹太人的情况下就发生了这种情况。最初只是针对犹太人，很快就波及了所有人类。所以我们学到的是我们永远不应该把“噢，他们只是威胁说要摧毁我们，他们不会这样做”的话放在一边。如果有人威胁要消灭你，就像伊朗今天所做的，就像希特勒当初所做的，人们对此不以为然，那么如果有人威胁要灭绝你，那么要认真对待并采取行动尽早阻止。不要让他们有机会这样做，因为可能已经太晚了。

So in those threats, underlying that hatred, how much of it is anti-Zionism and how much of it is anti-Semitism? I don't distinguish between the two. You can't say, well, I'm okay with Jews, but I just don't think there should be a Jewish state. It's like saying, I'm not anti-American, I just don't think there should be an America. That's basically what people are saying, these are anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. When you're saying anti-Zionism, you're saying that Jewish people don't have a right to have a state of their own. And that is a denial of a basic principle that I think completely unmasks what is involved here. Today anti-Semitism is anti-Zionism. Those who oppose the Jewish people oppose the Jewish state.

在这些威胁中，潜藏着多少仇恨是反犹太复国主义，多少是反犹太主义呢？我不区分这两者。你不能说，我对犹太人没意见，只是不认为应该有一个犹太国家。这就好像说，我不是反美国，只是不认为应该有一个美国一样。这些人实际上是在宣称反犹太主义和反犹太复国主义。当你说反犹太复国主义时，你是在说犹太人没有权利拥有自己的国家。这就是一种否认一个基本原则的行为，我认为这完全揭示了当中所涉及的内容。如今，反犹太主义就是反犹太复国主义。那些反对犹太人的人也反对犹太国家。

If we jump from human history to the current particular moment, there's protests in Israel now about the proposed judicial reform that gives power to your government to override the Supreme Court. So the critics say that this gives too much power to you or is surely making you a dictator. Yeah, well, that's ridiculous. The mere fact that you have so many demonstrations and protests, some dictatorship, huh? There's a lot of democracy here, more ambitious and more robust than just anywhere on the planet. Can you steal man the case that this may give too much power to the coalition government to the prime minister, not just to you, but to those who follow? No, I think that's complete hogwash because I think there's a very few people who are demonstrating against this. Quite a few, quite many don't have an idea what is being discussed. They're basically being sloganized. You can sloganize something about, not mass media right now, but the social network. You can basically feed deliberately with big data and big money. You can just feed slogans and get into people's minds. I'm sure you don't think I exaggerate because you can tell me more about that. And you can create mass mobilization based on these absurd slogans.

如果我们从人类历史跳到当前特定时刻，以色列现在正在抗议拟议中的司法改革，该改革赋予政府超越最高法院的权力。批评人士说这样会给你过多的权力，甚至使你成为独裁者。是的，嗯，那太荒谬了。仅仅因为有这么多的示威和抗议，就能说这是独裁吗？这里有很多民主，比地球上任何其他地方都更雄心勃勃、更健全。你能分析一下这可能会给联合政府和总理过多权力的案例吗？不，我认为这完全是胡说八道，因为很少有人对此进行示威抗议。真的是很多人对正在讨论的事情一无所知。他们只是被口号所左右。你可以将一些东西在社交网络上传播，以大数据和大钱来有意识地进行操控。你可以轻易地灌输口号并植入人们的思想。我相信你不会觉得我夸大其词，因为你对此了解得更多。你可以基于这些荒谬的口号创建大规模动员。

So here's where I come from and what we're doing, what we're trying to do and what we've changed and what we're trying to do. I'm a 19th century Democrat in my small D, yes, in my views. That is, I view, I ask the question, what is democracy? Okay, so democracy is the will of the majority and the protection of the rights, so they call it the rights of the minority, but I say the rights of the individual, okay? So how do you balance the two, okay? How do you avoid democracy, okay? And how do you avoid dictatorship, the opposite side? The way you avoid it is something that was built essentially by British philosophers and French philosophers but was encapsulated by the founding fathers of the United States.

这里是我来自的地方，我们正在做什么，我们试图做什么，我们已经改变了什么，以及我们尝试做的事情。我是个小“d”民主派，以我的观点来看，我问自己什么是民主？好的，民主是多数人的意愿和对少数人权利的保护，他们称之为少数群体的权利，但我称之为个人的权利，好吗？那么如何平衡这两者呢？如何避免民主和独裁，两种相反的极端？避免的方式实际上是由英国哲学家和法国哲学家发展起来的，但是由美国开国元勋们加以整合。

You create a balance between the three branches of government, okay? The legislative, executive and the judiciary. And this balance is what assures the balance between majority rights and individual rights. And you have to balance all of them, okay? That balance was maintained in Israel in his first 50 years and was gradually overtaken and basically broken by the most activist judicial court on the planet. That's what happened here. And gradually over the last two, three decades, the court arrogated for itself the powers of the parliament and the executive.

你要在三个政府分支之间维持一种平衡，明白吗？立法、行政和司法。而这种平衡就是确保多数人权利和个人权利之间的平衡。你必须要平衡所有这些，明白吗？在以色列的前50年，这种平衡得以维持，但逐渐被全球最活跃的司法法庭取代和破坏。这就是发生在这里的事情。在过去的二三十年间，法庭逐渐霸占了议会和行政的权力。

So we're trying to bring it back into line. Bring it back into line into what is common in all parliamentary democracies and in the United States. Doesn't mean taking the pendulum from one side and bringing it to the other side. We want checks and balances, not unrival power. Just as we said, we want an independent judiciary but not in all powerful judiciary.

所以我们正试图使其回归正轨。回归正轨的意思是符合所有议会民主制国家和美国的普遍标准。这并不意味着将钟摆从一边带到另一边。我们想要的是制衡和平衡，而不是无敌权力。正如我们所说，我们希望独立的司法机构，但不希望它成为无所不能的司法机构。

That balance does not mean bringing it back into line. Doesn't mean that you can have the parliament archness that override any decision that the Supreme Court does. So I pretty much early on said after the judicial reform was introduced, get rid of the idea of sweeping override clause that would have with 61 votes. That's majority of one. You can just nullify any Supreme Court decision. So let's move it back into the center. So that's gone. And most of the criticism on the judicial reform was based on an unlimited override clause which I've said is simply not gonna happen. People are discussing something that already for six months does not exist.

平衡并不意味着将其纠正过来。也不意味着议会可以凭借自己的聪明才智来推翻最高法院的任何决定。所以在司法改革提出后，我就早早地表示要摒弃那个拥有61票就能推翻一切的全面覆盖条款的想法。61票，仅仅多一个就能抵消任何最高法院的决定。所以让我们将其归于中正之道。这个条款已经被废除了。对司法改革的大部分批评都是基于一个无限覆盖条款，但我已经说过它根本不会实现。人们正在讨论一个已经六个月不存在的东西。

The second point that we received criticism on was the structure of how do you choose Supreme Court judges. How do you choose them? And the critics of the reform are saying that the idea that elected officials choose Supreme Court judges is the end of democracy. If that's the case, the United States is not a democracy and now there is France and now there are just, I don't know, just about every democracy on the planet.

我们收到的第二点批评是如何选择最高法院的法官的结构问题。你是如何选择他们的？对于这项改革的批评者声称，选举官员选择最高法院法官的想法将意味着民主的终结。如果是这样的话，美国就不是一个民主国家了，现在法国也不是，实际上地球上几乎每一个民主国家也不是。

So there is a view here that you can't have the sorted hands of elected officials involved in the choosing of judges. And in the Israeli system, the judicial activism went so far that effectively the sitting judges have an effective veto on choosing judges, which means that this is a self-selecting court that just perpetrates itself. And we wanna correct that. Again, wanna correct it in a balanced way. And that's basically what we're trying to do. So I think there's a lot of misinformation about that.

在这里，有一种观点认为选举官员的排列手法不能涉及到法官的选择。以色列的司法活动主义一直走得很远，以至于现任法官对选择法官拥有有效的否决权，这意味着这是一个自我选择的法院，只会使情况继续存在。我们希望纠正这一点。再次强调，我们希望以一种平衡的方式进行纠正。这基本上是我们正在努力做的事情。所以我认为关于这一点有很多误解。

We're trying to bring Israeli democracy to where it was in its first 50 years. And it was a stellar democracy. It still is. Israel is a democracy, will remain a democracy, a vibrant democracy. And believe me, the fact that people are arguing and demonstrating in the streets and protesting is just the best proof of that. And that's how it'll remain.

我们正在努力将以色列的民主制度恢复到其前50年的水平。它曾经是一种出色的民主制度。现在依然如此。以色列是一个民主国家，会一直保持民主，是一个充满活力的民主国家。相信我，人们在街头争论、示威和抗议只是对这一点最好的证明。而且，它将会一直如此。

We spoke about tech companies offline. There's a lot of tech companies nervous about this judicial reform. Can you speak to why a large and small companies have a future in Israel? Because Israel is a free market economy. I had something to do with that. I introduced dozens and dozens of free market reforms that made Israel move from $17,000 per capita income to within very short time, to $54,000. That's nominal GDP per capita, according to the IMF. And we've overtaken in that, Japan, France, Britain, Germany. How did that happen?

我们离线讨论过科技公司的问题。有许多科技公司对这项司法改革感到紧张。你能解释一下为什么以色列的大公司和小公司都有未来吗？因为以色列是一个自由市场经济。我对此有些关系。我引入了许多自由市场改革，使以色列实现了从每人年均收入1.7万美元到短时间内接近5.4万美元的过渡。这是名义GDP人均收入，根据国际货币基金组织的数据。我们已经在这方面超过了日本、法国、英国和德国。这是怎么发生的呢？

Because we unleashed the genius that we have and the initiative and the entrepreneurship that is latent in our population. And to do that, we had to create free markets. So we created that. So Israel has one of the most vibrant free market economies in the world. And the second thing we have is a permanent investment in conceptual products, because we have a permanent investment in the military and our security services, creating, basically, knowledge workers who then become knowledge entrepreneurs. And so we create this structure. And that's not going to go away.

因为我们释放了我们拥有的天才、主动性和在我们人口中潜在的企业家精神。为了达到这一点，我们不得不创建自由市场。所以我们创建了自由市场。因此，以色列拥有世界上最有活力的自由市场经济之一。而我们拥有的第二个优势是对概念产品的持久投资，因为我们在军事和安全服务方面进行了持久的投资，从而创造了基本上是知识工作者的人员，他们后来成为了知识企业家。因此，我们创造了这样的结构。这种优势是不会消失的。

There's been a decline in investments in high tech, globally. I think that's driven by many factors. But the most important one is the interest rate, which I think will fluctuate up and down. But Israel will remain a very attractive country, because it produces so many, so many knowledge workers in a knowledge-based economy. And it's changing so rapidly. The world is changing. You're looking for the places that have innovation. The future belongs to those who innovate.

全球高科技投资已经出现下降，我认为这是由许多因素驱动的。但最重要的是利率，我认为它将会波动上升和下降。但是以色列仍将是一个非常有吸引力的国家，因为它在以知识为基础的经济中生产了如此众多的知识工作者。而且它的变化如此迅速。世界正在变化。你正在寻找那些拥有创新的地方。未来属于那些创新者。

Israel is the preeminent innovation nation. It has few competitors. And if we would say, all right, where do you have this close cross-disciplinary fermentation of various skills and areas? I would say it's in Israel. I'll tell you why. We used to be just telecoms, because people went out of the military intelligence, our NSA. But that's been now broad-based. So you find it in medicine. You find it in biology. You find it in agritech. You find it everywhere. Everything is becoming technologized. And in Israel, everybody is dealing in everything. And that's a potent reservoir of talent that the world is not going to pass up. And in fact, it's coming to us. We just had NVIDIA coming here. And they decided to build a supercomputer in Israel. Wonder why? We've had Intel come in here and deciding down to invest $25 billion just now. In a new plant in Israel, I wonder why. I don't wonder why. They know why, because the talent is here, and the freedom is here. Then it will remain so.

以色列是卓越的创新之国，几乎没有竞争对手。如果我们问，哪里有各种技能和领域之间紧密的跨学科交流呢？我会说那就是以色列。我告诉你为什么。我们过去只关注电信业，因为人们从我们的军事情报机构离职。但现在情况已经有所改变。所以你可以在医药、生物学、农业科技等领域找到创新。你可以在各个领域找到科技的踪迹。在以色列，每个人都涉足各个领域。这是一个才华横溢的人才储备，世界注定不会错过。事实上，这些人才都在向我们涌来。刚刚，英伟达就来我们这里了，并决定在以色列建造一个超级计算机。想知道为什么吗？英伟达之后，英特尔也投资了250亿美元，在以色列建造一个新工厂。想知道为什么吗？我不用想，他们知道为什么，因为天才就在这里，自由也在这里。而且将一直如此。

So you had a conversation about AI with Sam Altman of OpenAI and with Elon Musk. What was the content of that conversation? What's your vision for this very highest of tech, which is artificial intelligence?

所以你与OpenAI的Sam Altman和Elon Musk进行了一次关于人工智能的对话。那次谈话的内容是什么？对于这个最高尖端技术——人工智能，你有什么愿景呢？

Well, first of all, I have a high regard for the people I talk to. And I understand that they understand things I don't understand. And I don't pretend to understand everything. But I do understand one thing. I understand that AI is developing at a geometric rate. And mostly in political life and in life in general, people don't have an intuitive grasp of geometric growth. You understand things basically in linear increments. And the idea that you're coming up ski slope is very foreign to people. So they don't understand it. And they're naturally also sort of taken aback by it, because what do you do?

首先，我非常尊重与我交谈的人。我知道他们明白我不明白的事情。我不会假装自己懂得一切。但我确实明白一件事。我明白人工智能正在以几何级别发展。在政治和生活中，人们通常对几何级增长缺乏直观的理解。你们基本上以线性增量来理解事物。而对于人们来说，人工智能的快速发展就像是在滑雪坡上蹿升，这对他们来说非常陌生。所以他们不理解，也自然会感到吃惊，因为他们该怎么办呢？

So I think there are several conclusions from my conversations with them and from my other observations. That I've been talking about for many years. I'm talking about the need to do this. Well, the first thing is this. There is no possibility of not entering AI with full force. Secondly, there is a need for regulation. Third, it's not clear there'll be global regulation. Fourth, it's not clear where it ends up. I certainly cannot say that. Now, you might say, does it come to control us? OK, that's a question. Does it come to control us? I don't know the answer to that. I think that as one observation that I had from these conversations is if it does come to control us, that's probably the only chance of having universal regulation, because I don't see anyone deciding to avoid the race and cooperate unless you have that threat. It doesn't mean you can't regulate AI within countries, even without that understanding. But it does mean that there's a limit to regulation, because every country will want to make sure that it does give up competitive advantage if there is no universal regulation.

所以我认为从我与他们的对话和其他观察中可以得出一些结论，这是我多年来一直讨论的内容。我在谈论需要采取行动。首先，没有不全力进入人工智能的可能性。其次，需要进行监管。第三，全球监管的前景并不明确。第四，人工智能的发展方向也不清楚。我当然不能预测。你可能会问，它会控制我们吗？好吧，这是一个问题。它会控制我们吗？我不知道答案。但我从这些对话中观察到的一点是，如果它确实会控制我们，那可能是实现普遍监管的唯一机会，因为我没有看到任何人会决定避免竞争并合作，除非有这种威胁。这并不意味着在没有这种共识的情况下不能在各个国家内监管人工智能。但这确实意味着监管有限，因为如果没有普遍监管，每个国家都会希望确保自己不失去竞争优势。

I think that right now, just as 10 years ago, I read a novel. I don't read novels, but I was forced to read one by a scientific advisor. I read history, I read about economics, I read about technology, I just don't read novels. OK, and this I'm follow Churchill. You know, he said fact is better than fiction. Well, this fiction would become fact. And it was a book, it was a novel about a Chinese-Americans and the future cyber war. And I read the book, one sitting, called in a theme of experts, and I said, all right, let's turn this URL into one of the world's five cyberpowers, and let's do it very quickly. And we did, actually. We did exactly that. I think AI is bigger than that, than related to that, because it'll affect, well, cyber affects everything, but AI will affect it even more fundamentally, and the joining of the two could be very powerful.

我认为现在，就像十年前一样，我读了一本小说。我平时不读小说，但是我被一位科学顾问强迫读了一本。我读历史，读经济，读技术，只是不读小说。好吧，我这样做是跟随丘吉尔的。你知道的，他说事实胜于虚构。嗯，这个虚构会变成事实。这是一本关于华裔美国人和未来网络战争的小说。我一口气读完了这本书，并召集了一些专家，我说，好吧，让我们把这个URL变成世界五大网络强国之一，而且要迅速实现。实际上，我们成功了。我认为人工智能的影响更大，与此相关，因为它将在更本质的层面上影响，而且两者的结合可能非常强大。

So I think in Israel, we have to do it anyway for security reasons, and we're doing it. But I think what about our databases that are already very robust on the medical records of 98% of our population? Why don't we stick a genetic database on that? Why don't we do other things that can bring magical, what are seemingly magical cures and drugs and medical instruments for that? That's one possibility that we have it in, as I said, in every single field. The conclusion is this. We have to move on AI. We are moving on AI just as we moved on cyber, and I think Israel will be one of the leading, one of the leading AI powers in the world.

所以我认为在以色列，出于安全原因，我们必须这样做，而且我们正在这样做。但是我想，我们已经拥有非常强大的医疗记录数据库，覆盖了我们98%的人口，为什么我们不在其中建立一个基因数据库呢？为什么我们不做其他可以带来神奇疗效、药物和医疗器械的事情呢？这是我们在每个领域都可以实现的一个可能性。结论是，我们必须推动人工智能的发展。我们正在努力推动人工智能的发展，就像我们努力推动网络安全一样，我相信以色列将成为世界上领先的人工智能大国之一。

The questions I don't have an answer to is, why does it go? How much does it eat chew up on jobs? There's an assumption that I'm not sure is true, that all previous, the two big, previous revolutions in the human condition, namely the agricultural revolution and the industrial revolution, definitely produce more jobs than they consumed. That is not obvious to me at all. I could see new jobs creating, and yes, I have that comforting statement, but it's not quite true, because I think unbalanced they'll probably consume more jobs, many more jobs, than they'll create. At least in the short term. And we don't know about the long term. No, I don't know about the long term, but I used to have the comfort being a free market guy, I always said, we're going to produce more jobs by limiting certain government jobs, actually putting out in the market will create more jobs, which obviously happen.

我对没有答案的问题是，为什么会这样呢？它会消耗多少工作机会？有一种假设我不确定是否正确，即人类条件的前两次巨大变革，即农业革命和工业革命，肯定创造了比它们消耗掉的工作机会更多。对我来说这一点并不明显。我可以看到新的工作岗位的创造，是的，我有这个令人安心的说法，但实际上它并不完全正确，因为我认为不平衡的情况下，它们可能会消耗更多的工作岗位，远远超过创造的工作岗位。至少在短期内是如此。至于长期情况，我们不得而知。不，我不知道长期情况，但过去我总是以自由市场派的身份感到安慰，我总是说，通过限制某些政府工作机会，实际上将会创造更多的工作机会，这显然是正确的。

We had one telecom company, a government company, when I said, we're going to create competition, they said, you're going to run us out, we're not going to have more workers. They had 13,000 workers, they went down to seven, but we created another 40,000 in the other companies. So that was a comforting thought. I always knew that was true. Not only that, I also knew that wealth was spread by opening up the markets, completely opposite to the socialist and semi-socialist creed that they had here. They said, you're going to make the rich richer, and the poor poor, no, and made everyone richer, and actually the people who entered the job market, because of the reforms we did actually became a lot richer, and the lower ladders of the socioeconomic measure. But here's the point. I don't know.

我们之前只有一家电信公司，是一家政府企业。当我提出要创造竞争时，他们说，你们会把我们挤垮，我们将失去更多的工人。他们原本有13,000名员工，后来减少到了7,000名，但是我们在其他公司又创造了40,000个岗位。这让人感到欣慰。我一直知道这是真的。不仅如此，我也知道通过开放市场可以实现财富的分配，这与他们这里的社会主义和半社会主义信条完全相反。他们说，“你会让富人更富，穷人更穷”，但事实上，所有人都变得更富有了。而且，由于我们所进行的改革，进入就业市场的人们实际上财富增长很多，尤其是那些社会经济下层的人们。但是，我不知道该怎么说。

I don't know that we will not have what Elon Musk calls the end of scarcity. So you'll have the end of scarcity, you'll have enormous productivity. You know, very few people are producing enormous added value. You're going to have to tax that to pass it to the others. Okay, you're going to have to do that. That's a political question. I'm not sure how we answer that. What if you tax and somebody else doesn't tax? You're going to get everybody to go there. That's an issue, an international issue that we constantly have to deal with. And the second question you have is, suppose you solve that problem, and you deliver money, okay, to those who are not involved in the AI economy. What do they do? The first question you ask somebody whom you just met after the polite, you know, the polite exchanges is, what do you do? Right? Well, people define themselves by their profession. And it's going to be difficult if you don't have a profession. And, you know, people will spend more time self-searching, they'll more time in the arts, more time in leisure, understand that. If I have to bet it will annihilate many more jobs than it will create and enforce a structural change in our economics, in our economic models and in our politics. And I'm not sure where it's going to go. And that's something we have to respond to at the nation level and just as a human civilization, both the threat of AI to just us as a human species and then the effect on the jobs and, like you said, cyber security.

我不知道埃隆·马斯克所称的无限资源的时代是否会到来。所以，你将会看到无限资源，将会有巨大的生产力。你知道，只有很少一部分人在创造巨大的附加值。你需要对此征税，将其转移给其他人。好吧，你必须这么做。这是一个政治问题。我不确定我们该如何回答这个问题。假如你征税而其他人没有征税怎么办？你将会让每个人都去那里。这是一个问题，这是一个国际问题，我们必须不断处理这个问题。而你第二个问题是，假设你解决了那个问题，并向那些没有参与AI经济的人提供了金钱，那他们会做什么？你在与刚认识的人客套了一下后，第一个问题就是，你从事什么工作？对吧？人们通过他们的职业来定义自己。如果你没有职业，这将会很困难。而且，你知道的，人们将会花更多时间去探索自己，他们将会花更多时间从事艺术，从事休闲活动，我理解这一点。如果要打赌的话，我会说AI将会消灭比创造更多的工作岗位，并对我们的经济模式和政治格局产生结构性改变。我不确定这将发展到何种程度。这是我们必须在国家层面和作为人类文明回应的事情，既是AI对我们作为一个人类物种的威胁，也是对工作和像你所说的网络安全的影响。

And what do you think? You think it's going to lose control? No. First of all, I do believe, maybe naively, that it will create more jobs than it takes. Write that down and we'll check it. It's on record. And, you know, we don't have it. We don't say we'll check it after our lifetime. No, we'll see it in a few years. We'll see it in a few years. I'm really concerned about cyber security and the nature of how that changes with the power of AI. And in terms of existential threats, I think there will be so much threats that aren't existential along the way that that's the thing I'm mostly concerned about versus AI taking complete control and becoming sort of superceding the human species. Although that is something you should consider seriously, because of the exponential growth of its capability. It's exactly the exponential growth which we understand is before us, but we don't really, it's very hard to project forward. To really understand. That's right. Exactly right. So, you know, I deal with what I can and where I can affect something. I tend not to worry about things I don't control because there's no point. I mean, you have to decide what you're spending your time on.

你认为呢？你认为它会失去控制吗？不，首先，我确实相信，也许天真地认为它会创造比消耗更多的就业机会。记下来，我们会检查的。这是记录在案的。而且，你知道，我们没有说会在我们一生之后才检查。不，几年后我们就会看到。我真的很担心网络安全以及随着人工智能的崛起所带来的变化。而且就存在威胁而言，我认为在这个过程中会有很多不是生存威胁的威胁，这是我最担心的事情，而不是人工智能完全掌控和超越人类这样的情况。尽管这是一件你应该认真考虑的事情，因为它的能力呈指数级增长。正是这种呈指数级增长我们明白在前方，但我们真的很难向前推演，真正理解。没错，完全正确。所以，你知道，我处理我能够处理和能够影响的事情。我倾向于不担心我无法控制的事情，因为那没有意义。我的意思是，你必须决定你在花费时间上的投入。

So I think in practical terms, I think we'll make Israel a formidable AI power. We understand the limitation of scale, computing power and other things, but I think within those limits, I think we can make here this miracle that we did in many other things. You know, we do more with less. I don't care if it's water, the production of water, or the production of energy, or the production of knowledge, or the production of cyber capabilities, defense and other. We just do more with less. And I think in AI, we're going to do a lot more with relatively small, but highly gifted population, very gifted.

因此，我认为从实际角度来看，我认为我们将使以色列成为一个强大的人工智能大国。我们了解规模、计算能力和其他因素的限制，但我认为在这些限制内，我们可以像在许多其他领域做的那样，在这里创造奇迹。你知道的，我们用更少的资源做更多的事情。我不在乎是水的生产、能源的生产、知识的生产、网络能力的生产、防御等等。我们只是用很少但非常有才华的人口做更多的事情。

So taking a small tangent, as we talked about offline, you have a background in Tae Kondo. Oh yeah. Yeah. We mentioned Elon Musk. I've trained with both. This is a quick question. Who you have, who you betting on in a fight. Well, I refuse to answer that. I will say this. Such a politician you are. Yeah, of course. Here I'm a politician. I'm openly telling you, then I'm dodging the question. Okay. But I'll say this. You know, I actually, I spent five years in our special forces in the military, and we barely spent a minute on martial arts. I actually learned Tae Kwon Do later when I came to, it wasn't even at MIT. At MIT, I think I did karate, but when I came to the UN, I had a martial arts expert in Tae Kwon Do, which was kind of interesting. Now the question you really have to ask is, why did we learn martial arts in this special elite unit? And the answer is, there's no point. If you saw Indiana Jones, you know, there's no point. You just, you know, pull the trigger. That's simple. Now, I don't expect anyone to pull the trigger on this combat, then I'm sure you'll make sure that doesn't happen.

所以稍微离题一下，像我们在离线中谈论的，你在跆拳道有背景。噢是的。是的。我们提到了埃隆·马斯克。我和他们都一起训练过。这是个简单的问题，你是支持谁在一场战斗中获胜的呢？嗯，我拒绝回答这个问题。我得说，你就像一个政客。是的，当然。在这里我是一个政客。我公开告诉你，我在回避这个问题。好吧，但是我得说，我在军队的特种部队中待了五年，我们几乎没花一分钟学习武术。我后来才学习跆拳道，不过那并不是在麻省理工学院学的，我想我是学的空手道。当我来到联合国时，我有一个跆拳道的武术专家，这挺有意思的。现在你真正需要问的问题是，为什么我们要在这个特殊的精英单位学习武术呢？答案是，没有意义。如果你看过《夺宝奇兵》，你就知道没意义。你只需要，你知道，扣动扳机，就这么简单。现在，我并不希望有人在这场战斗中扣动扳机，我相信你会确保这种情况不会发生。

Yeah. I mean, martial arts is it's kind of, it's bigger than just combat. It's this kind of journey of humility and it has, it's an art form. It truly is an art. But it's fascinating that these two figures in tech are facing each other. And I won't ask a question of who you would face and how you would do. Well, I'm facing opponents all the time. All the time? Yeah, that's part of life. But not a. Part of life is. Not yet. I'm not sure about that. Are you announcing you know, it's okay. No, part of life is competition. You know, the only time competition ends is death. But you know, political life, economic life, cultural life is engaged continuously in creativity and competition.

是的，我的意思是，武术不仅仅是战斗，它更大。它是一种谦卑之旅，是一种艺术形式。它真的是一门艺术。但有趣的是，这两个科技界的人物正在面对对方。我不会问你会选择和如何对战的问题。嗯，我一直在面对对手。一直都是吗？是的，那是生活的一部分。但并非所有生活的一部分。还没有。我不确定。你是在宣布你知道，没关系。不是的，生活的一部分就是竞争。你知道，唯一结束竞争的时刻就是死亡。但你知道，政治生活、经济生活、文化生活都在不断地进行创造和竞争。

The problem I have with that, as I mentioned earlier, just before we began the podcast, is that at a certain point, you want to put barriers to monopoly. And if you're a really able competitor, you're going to create a monopoly. That's what Peter Thiel says is a natural course of things. It's what I learned and basically in the Boston Consulting Group. If you're a very able competitor, you'll create scale advantages that give you the ability to lock out your competition. And as a prime minister, I want to assure that there is competition in the markets. You have to limit this competitive power at a certain point. And that becomes increasingly hard in the world where everything is intermeshed. Where do you define market segments? Where do you define monopoly? How do you do that? That is very. That actually conceptually I find very challenging.

我对此的问题，就如我之前提到的，在我们开始播客之前，是在某个阶段，你希望设置一些垄断的壁垒。如果你是一个非常有竞争力的竞争者，你将会创造一个垄断。这就是彼得·蒂尔所说的事情的自然结果。这是我在波士顿咨询公司学到的基本观点。如果你是一个非常有竞争力的竞争者，你将会创造规模上的优势，使你能够排斥竞争对手。作为一名总理，我希望确保市场上存在竞争。你必须在某个阶段限制这种竞争力。在一个一切都相互交融的世界中，这变得越来越难。你要如何定义市场细分？你要如何定义垄断？你要如何做到这一点？这是非常具有挑战性的概念。

Because of all the dozens of political, of economic reforms that I've made, the most difficult part is the conceptual part. Once you have ironed it out, you say, here's what I want to do, here's the right thing to do, then you have a practical problem of overcoming union resistance, political resistance, press, calamity, opponents from this or that corner. That's a practical matter. But if you have it conceptually defined, you can move ahead to reform economies or reform education or reform transportation. Fine. And the question of the growing power of large companies, big tech companies, to monopolize the markets because they're better at it. They provide a service. They provide a lower cost, rapidly declining cost. Where do you stop? Where do you stop?

因为我所进行的政治和经济改革众多，其中最难的部分是概念性问题。一旦你弄清楚，你就会说，这是我想做的事情，这是正确的做法，接下来你就要面对克服工会的抵制、政治的阻力、媒体的干扰、来自各个方面的对手等实际问题。但如果你在概念上定义好了，你就可以继续推动经济改革、教育改革或者交通改革。好了。而大公司、大科技公司不断壮大、垄断市场的问题，因为它们擅长此事。它们提供了一种服务，提供了更低成本、迅速下降的成本。你在哪里停下来？你在哪里停下来？

A monopoly power is a crucial question because it also becomes now a political question. If you amass enormous amount of economic power, which is information power, that also monopolizes the political process, which creates. These are real questions that are not obvious. I don't have an obvious answer. Because as I said, as a 19th century Democrat, these are questions of the 21st century which people should begin to think. You have a solution to that. The solution of monopolies growing arbitrarily, unstoppably in power. Economic power and therefore in political power. Some of that is regulation. Some of that is competition. You know where to draw the line? It's not breaking up AT&T. It's not that simple.

垄断权力是一个关键问题，因为它现在也变成了一个政治问题。如果你积聚了巨大的经济权力，即信息权力，这也垄断了政治进程，从而引发了问题。这些都是不明显的真实问题。我没有明显的答案。因为正如我所说，作为一个19世纪的民主主义者，这些是21世纪人们应该开始思考的问题。你有一个解决办法。解决垄断在经济权力和政治权力方面任意增长和不可阻挡的问题。其中一部分是监管。其中一部分是竞争。你知道在哪里划界吗？这不是要解散AT&T。这并不简单。

Well I believe in the power of competition that there will always be somebody that challenges the big guys, especially in the space of AI. The more open source movements are taking hold, the more the little guy can become the big guy.

我相信竞争的力量，总会有人挑战那些大公司，尤其是在人工智能领域。开源运动的盛行，使得那些小企业有了成为大企业的机会。

So you're saying basically the regulatory instrument is the market? In large part, in most part, that's the hope. Maybe I'm a dreamer. That's been in many ways by policy up to now. The best regulator is the market, the best regulator in economic activity is the market. And the best regulator in political matters is the political market. That's called elections. That's what regulates. You have a lousy government and people make lousy decisions. Well you don't need the wise men raised above the masses to decide what is good and what is bad. Let the masses decide. Let them vote every four years or whatever. They throw you up. By the way it happened to me. There's life after political death. There's actually political life.

那么你的意思基本上是说监管工具就是市场？ 在很大程度上，甚至绝大部分情况下，是这样的希望。也许我是一个梦想家。迄今为止，这在很多方面都是通过政策实现的。市场是最好的监管者，经济活动中最好的监管者就是市场。而政治领域中最好的监管者是政治市场。这就是选举。这就是调节的方式。如果政府糟糕，人们就会做糟糕的决定。你不需要让智者高高在上来决定什么是好的，什么是坏的。让群众来决定。让他们每四年或者其他时间投票。他们会推翻你。顺便说一下，我亲身经历了这个。政治死亡之后还有生活。实际上还有政治生活。

I was reelected five or six times and this is my sixth term. So I believe in that. I'm not sure. I'm not sure that in economic matters, in the geometric growth of tech companies, that you'll always have the little guy, the nimble mammal that will come out and slay the dinosaurs or overcome the dinosaurs. Which is essentially what you said. I wouldn't count the little guy. You wouldn't count out the little guy. I hope you're right.

我连任了五到六次，这是我第六个任期了。所以我相信这一点。但我不确定。在经济问题上，在科技公司的几何增长中，你不会总是有小人物，那个灵活的哺乳动物会出来杀死恐龙或克服恐龙。这基本上就是你说的。我不能忽视小人物。你也不能忽视小人物。我希望你是对的。

Let me ask you about this market of politics. Do you have served six terms as prime minister over 15 years in power?

让我问你关于政治市场的问题。你曾在担任总理的15年任期内连任六届吗？

Let me ask you again, human nature. Do you worry about the corrupting nature of power? I knew as a leader. I knew as a man. Not at all. Because I think that the thing that drives me is nothing but the mission that I took to assure the survival and thriving of the state, the Jewish state. That is, it's economic prosperity, but it's security and it's ability to achieve peace with our neighbors. And I'm committed to it. I think there's still many things that have been done. There are a few big things that I can still do, but it doesn't only depend on my sense of mission. It depends on the market, as we say. It depends really on the will of the Israeli voters and the Israeli voters have decided to vote for me again, even though I wield no power in the press. No power in many quarters here and so on. Nothing.

让我再问你一次，人性。你担心权力的腐化本质吗？作为一个领导者，作为一个男人，我对此一点也不担心。因为我认为驱使我前进的只是我承担的使犹太国家生存和繁荣的使命。也就是它的经济繁荣，它的安全以及与邻国实现和平的能力。我对此深信不疑。我认为还有很多事情可以做。我还可以做一些重要的事情，但这并不仅仅取决于我对使命的认识。正如我们所说，这还取决于市场。真正取决于以色列选民的意愿，以色列选民决定再次为我投票，尽管媒体对我无所作为，其他方面对我无权无能。没有任何影响力。

I'm probably going to be very soon the longest serving prime minister in the last half century in the Western democracies. But that's not because I am mass great political power in any of the institutions. I remember I had a conversation with Sylvia Berlusconi who recently died and he said to me about, I don't know, 15 years ago, something like that. He said, so, baby, how many of Israel's television stations do you have? And I said, none. He said, you have none. I have two. I said, none. I have two. He said, no, no, but what you mean, you don't have any that you control? I said, not only do I have none that I control, they're all against me. So I said, so how do you win elections? And with both hands tied behind your back, and I said, the hard way. That's why I have the largest party, but I don't have many more seats that I would have if I had a sympathetic voice in the media. And Israel is, until recently, was dominated completely by one side of the political spectrum that often vilified me, not me because they viewed me as representing basically the conservative voices in Israel that are majority. So the idea that I'm an omnipotent authoritarian dictator is ridiculous.

我很可能很快就成为过去半个世纪中西方民主国家任期最长的总理。但这并不是因为我在任何机构中拥有很大的政治权力。我记得我曾和最近去世的西尔维奥·贝卢斯科尼（Silvio Berlusconi）进行过一次谈话，大约是在15年前左右。他问我说：“宝贝，以色列有几家电视台？”我回答说：“没有。”他说：“你一个都没有。我有两家。”我说：“没有，我有两家。”他说：“不，不，你是什么意思，你一个都不能控制？”我回答说：“不仅我一个都不能控制，它们对我都很反对。”于是我问他：“那么你是如何在被束缚双手的情况下赢得选举的？”我回答说：“走上艰难的道路。”这就是为什么我有最大的政党，但如果我在媒体中有一个同情的声音，我可能会有更多席位。直到最近，以色列一直被政治谱系中的一方完全主导，他们经常诋毁我，不是因为我个人，而是因为他们认为我代表着以色列保守派的主流声音。所以说我是一个全能的独裁者是荒谬的。

I would say I'm not merely a champion of democracy and democratization. I believe ultimately the decision is with the voters. And the voters, even though they have constant press attacks, they have chosen to put me back in. So I don't believe in this thing of amassing the corrupting power. If you don't have elections. If you don't have, if you control the means of influencing the voters, I understand what you're saying. But in my case, it's the exact opposite. I have to constantly go on elections, constantly with a disadvantage that the major media outlets are very violently sometimes against me. But it's fine. And I keep on winning. So I don't know what you're talking. I would say the concentration of power lies elsewhere, not here.

我会说，我并不仅仅是民主和民主化的捍卫者。我相信最终的决定在选民手中。即使选民受到持续的媒体攻击，他们选择继续支持我。所以我不相信积聚腐败权力的说法。如果没有选举，如果你控制了影响选民的手段，我理解你的观点。但在我的情况下，情况恰恰相反。我必须不断参加选举，而且常常处于劣势，因为主要媒体对我持反对态度。但这没关系，我一直在赢。所以我不知道你在说什么。我会说，权力的集中点在其他地方，而不在这里。

Well, you have been involved in several corruption cases. How much corruption is there in Israel? And how do you fight it in your own party and in Israel?

嗯，你曾卷入几起腐败案件。以色列有多少腐败问题存在？你是如何在你所在的政党和整个以色列社会中与之作斗争的呢？

Well, you should ask a different question. What's happened to these cases? These cases have basically are collapsing. And before our eyes, there was recently an event in which the judges, the three judges in my case, called in the prosecution and said, your flagship, the bribery chart, so-called bribery chart, it's gone. It doesn't exist. Before a single defense witness was called, and it sort of tells you that this thing is evaporating. It's quite astounding. Even that, I have to say, was covered even by the mainstream press in Israel because it's such an earthquake. So a lot of these charges are not a lot. These charges will prove to be nothing. I always said, listen, I stand before the legal process. I don't claim that exempt from it in any way on the contrary. I think the truth will come out, and it's coming out. We see that not only that, but with other things. So I think it's kind of instructive that no politician has been more vilified. None has been put to such a- What is it, about a quarter of a billion shackles were used to scrutinize me, scour my bank accounts, sending people to the Philippines and to Mexico and to Europe and to America, and looking at everybody using spyware, the most advanced spyware on the planet against my associates, blackmailing witnesses, telling them, you know, think about your family, think about your wife, you know, you better tell us what you want. All that is coming out of the trial. So I would say that most people now are not asking, are no longer asking, including my opponents, sort of trickling me in as the stuff comes out. People are not saying, what did Netanyahu do because he apparently did nothing? What was done to him is something that people ask. What was done to him? What was done to our democracy? What was done in the attempt to put down somebody who keeps winning elections despite the handicaps that I described, maybe we can nail them by framing them. And the one thing I can say about this court trial is that things are coming up, and that's very good. Just objective things are coming up, changing the picture. So I would say the attempt to brand me as corrupt is falling on its face, but the thing that isn't being uncovered in the trial, such as the use of spyware on a politician, a politician's surroundings to try to shake them down in investigations, put them in flea-ridden cells for 21 days, invite their 84-year-old mother to investigations without cause bringing in their mistresses in the corridor, shaking them down. That's what people are asking. That corruption is what they want corrected.

嗯，你应该提一个不同的问题。这些案件发生了什么事？这些案件基本上都崩溃了。就在我们眼前，最近有一次事件，我案件的那三位法官，召唤了检方，说你们的旗舰案件，所谓的贿赂图表，已经消失了。在辩护证人被传唤之前，这告诉你这个事情正在消失。这真是太令人震惊了。我不得不说，这甚至被以色列的主流媒体报道了，因为这是一场地震。所以很多这些指控并不多。这些指控最终会被证明毫无根据。我一直说过，听着，我会遵守法律程序。我并不声称豁免于其中，相反，我认为真相会大白，而现在真相正在浮出水面。我们看到的不仅如此，还有其他的事情。所以我认为这很有启示性，没有哪个政治家受到如此多的诋毁，也没有人受到如此多的调查。有大约2.5亿希克尔用来审视我，检查我的银行账户，派遣人员去菲律宾、墨西哥、欧洲和美国，并使用全球最先进的间谍软件监听我的同事，勒索证人，告诉他们，你要考虑好你的家庭，你的妻子，最好告诉我们你想要什么。所有这些都会在审判中浮出水面。所以我可以说，大多数人现在不再问，包括我的对手们，随着事实的逐渐公之于众，他们只是将我置于稍后处理的位置而已。人们不再问，内塔尼亚胡做了什么，因为他显然什么都没有做。人们问的是，对他做了什么？对我们的民主做了什么？试图打压一个不管遭遇了怎样的阻力都能持续赢得选举的人，也许我们可以通过陷害他们来抓住他们。我可以说有关这个法庭审判的一件事是，一些事情正在浮出水面，这是非常好的。客观的事实正在浮出水面，改变着形势。所以我要说，试图把我打成腐败分子的企图正在失败，但在审判中没有被揭示出来的事情，比如对政治家使用间谍软件来试图敲诈调查他们，在患有跳蚤的牢房中关押他们21天，邀请他们84岁的母亲去参加没有理由的调查，把他们的情妇带到走廊上，试图敲诈他们。人们关心的是这种腐败行为，他们希望得到纠正。

What is the top obstacle to peaceful coexistence of Israelis and Palestinians? Let's talk about the big question of peace in this part of the world.

以色列人和巴勒斯坦人和平共存的最大障碍是什么？让我们来探讨这个地区和平的重大问题。

Well, I think the reason you have the persistence of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, which goes back about a century, is the persistent Palestinian refusal to recognize a Jewish state, a nation state for the Jewish people, in any boundary. That's why they opposed the establishment of the state of Israel before we had a state. That's why they've opposed it after we had a state. They opposed it when we were. We didn't have Judea and Samaria, the West Bank, in our heads and Gaza. They opposed it after we have it. It doesn't make a difference. It's basically their persistent refusal to recognize a Jewish state in any boundaries. And I think their tragedy is that they've been commandeered for a century by leadership that refused to compromise with the idea of Zionism, namely that the Jews deserve a state in this part of the world.

我认为巴以冲突持续存在一个世纪的原因是巴勒斯坦人一直坚决拒绝承认犹太国家——为犹太人民设立的国家，不论在任何边界上。这就是为什么在以色列成立之前，他们反对建立以色列国家；这就是为什么在我们有了国家之后，他们依然反对。不论在我们头脑中是否有犹太和撒玛利亚（约旦河西岸）以及加沙地带，他们都反对。即使是在我们拥有这些地区之后，他们依然反对。这没有任何区别。基本上，他们一直拒绝承认在任何边界内成立犹太国家。我认为他们的悲剧在于他们一个世纪来被领导层操纵，这些领导层拒绝与犹太复国主义妥协，也就是拒绝接受犹太人在这个世界一部分应当拥有自己的国家的观念。

The territorial dispute is something else. You have a territorial dispute if you say, okay, you're living on this side, we're living on that side, let's decide where the border is, and so on. That's not what the argument is. The Palestinian society, which is itself fragmented, but all the factions agree, there shouldn't be a Jewish state anywhere. Okay? They just disagree between Hamas that says, oh, well, you should have it. We should get rid of it with terror. And the others will say, we know we should also use political means to dissolve it. So that is the problem. So even as part of a two-state solution, they're still against the idea. Well they don't want a state next to Israel. They want a state instead of Israel. And they say, if we get a state, we'll use it as a springboard to destroy the smaller Israeli state, which is what happened when Israel unilaterally walked out of Gaza and effectively established a Hamas state there. They didn't say, oh good, now we have our own territory, our own state, Israel is no longer there. Let's build peace, let's build economic projects, let's enfranchise our people. No, they turned it into a basically into a terror bastion for which they find 10,000 rockets into Israel.

领土争端是个不同的问题。如果你说，你住在这边，我们住在那边，让我们决定边界之类的，那就是领土争端。但这不是争论的内容。巴勒斯坦社会本身是四分五裂的，但所有派系都同意，犹太人不应该有自己的国家。他们只是在如何消灭以色列国方面意见不同。哈马斯认为应该用恐怖手段来消灭，其他派别则认为也可以通过政治手段来解体。这就是问题所在。即使作为两国解决方案的一部分，他们仍然反对这个想法。他们不想要一个挨着以色列的国家，而是想要一个取代以色列的国家。他们说，如果我们得到一个国家，我们就会把它作为摧毁较小的以色列国的跳板，这就是当以色列单方面撤出加沙，并在那里效果上建立了一个哈马斯国之后所发生的事情。他们没有说，哦，好，现在我们有了自己的领土、自己的国家，以色列不再存在了。让我们建设和平，建设经济项目，赋予我们的人民权力。不，他们把它变成了一个基本上是恐怖堡垒的地方，从那里向以色列发射了1万枚火箭。

When Israel left Lebanon, because we had terrorist attacks from there, then we had Lebanon taken over by Hezbollah terrorist organization that seeks to destroy Israel. And therefore every time we just walked out, what we got was not peace. We didn't give territory for peace. We got territory for terror. That's what we had. And that's what would happen as long as the reigning ideology says, we don't want Israel in any border. So the idea of two states assumes that you'd have on the other side a state that wants to live in peace and not one that will be overtaken by Iran in its proxies in two seconds and become a base to destroy Israel. And therefore I think that most Israelis today, if you ask them, they'd say it's not going to work in that concept.

当以色列撤离黎巴嫩时，因为我们受到了来自那里的恐怖袭击，接着黎巴嫩被真主党这个寻求摧毁以色列的恐怖组织接管。因此，每次我们撤离之后，我们得到的不是和平。我们没有为了和平而割让领土，我们为了恐怖而割让领土。那是我们所经历的。只要主导意识形态表示我们不想要以色列存在任何边境上，这种情况就会一直发生。因此，我认为今天大多数以色列人如果问他们，他们会说这种概念行不通。

So what do you do with the Palestinians? They're still there. And unlike them, I don't want to throw them out. They're going to be living here. And we're going to be living here in an area which is, by the way, to understand. The entire area of so-called West Bank and in Israel is the width of the Washington Belt Way more or less. Just a little more, not much more. If you can't really divide it up, you can't say, well, you're going to fly in. Who controls the airspace? Well, it takes you about two and a half minutes to cross it with a regular 747. With a fighter plane, it takes you a minute and a half.

那么你打算怎么处理巴勒斯坦人呢？他们依然存在。与他们不同的是，我不想把他们赶走。他们将继续居住在这里，而我们也将在这个区域内生活。而这个区域，顺便说一下，是要明白的。整个所谓的约旦河西岸和以色列的面积大致相当于华盛顿环线的宽度。只是稍微多一点，但并不多。如果你真的不能将其划分开来，不能说，嗯，你就飞过来吧。谁来控制领空？用一架普通的747飞机横跨需要大约两分半。用一架战斗机则需要一分半。

So you're not, how are you going to divide the airspace? Well, you're not going to divide it. Israel is going to control that airspace and the electromagnetic space and so on. So security has to be in the hands of Israel. My view of how you solve this problem is that it is a simple principle. The Palestinians should have all the powers to govern themselves and none of the powers to threaten Israel, which basically means that the responsibility for overall security remains with Israel. And from a practical point of view, we've seen that every time that Israel leaves a territory and takes its security forces out of an area, it immediately is overtaken by Hamas or Hezbollah or a geodist who basically are committed to the destruction of Israel and also bring misery to the Palestinians or Arab subjects.

那么，您不打算怎样划分领空呢？嗯，您不会进行划分。以色列将控制领空和电磁空间等等。因此，安全必须掌握在以色列手中。我认为解决这个问题的方法非常简单。巴勒斯坦人应该拥有自治的所有权力，但不能拥有危害以色列的权力，这基本上意味着全面安全责任仍由以色列承担。从实际角度来看，我们已经看到，每当以色列撤出一个地区并将安全部队撤离时，立刻就会被哈马斯、真主党或地缘主义者接管，这些人基本上致力于摧毁以色列，也给巴勒斯坦人或阿拉伯地区带来苦难。

So I think that principle is less than perfect sovereignty because you're taking a certain amount of power, sovereign powers, especially security away. But I think it's the only practical solution. So people say, ah, but it's not a perfect state. I say, OK, call it what you will call it. You know, I don't know, limited sovereignty, call it autonomy plus call it whatever you want to call it. But that's the reality. And right now, if you ask Israelis across the political spectrum, except the very hard left, most Israelis agree with that. They don't really debate it.

所以我认为原则上的主权是不完美的，因为它削减了一定的权力，尤其是安全方面的主权。但我认为这是唯一实际的解决方案。所以有人说，啊，但它并不是完美的状态。我说，好吧，你随便怎么称呼它。我不知道，有限主权，或者称之为自治加上，你想怎么称呼都可以。但这就是现实。而目前，如果你问以色列人的政治光谱，除了极左派，大多数以色列人都同意这一点。他们不会真正争论这个问题。

So a two state solution, where Israel controls the security of the entire region? We don't call it quite that. I mean, they're different names, but the idea is, yes, Israel controls security and the entire area between the Jordan River and the sea.

所以，一个以色列控制整个地区安全的两国解决方案？虽然我们不完全这样称呼它，我指的是，名称不同，但是核心思想是，以色列确实控制约旦河和海洋之间的整个区域的安全。

I mean, it's like, you know, you can walk it and not one afternoon. If you really fit, you can do it in a day. Less than a day. I did.

我的意思是，你知道的，你可以步行完整个行程，不仅仅只需要一个下午。如果你真的身体状况好，你可以在一天内完成。甚至不用一整天。我就是这么做的。

So the expansion of settlements in the West Bank has been a top priority for this new government. So people may harshly criticize this as contributing to escalating Israel policy and tensions. But can you understand that perspective that this expansion of settlements is not good for this two state solution?

因此，西岸定居点的扩张一直是这届新政府的首要任务。因此，人们可能会严厉批评这一行为，认为它加剧了以色列的政策和紧张局势。但是，你能理解这个观点吗？即扩张定居点不符合双方达成和解的前景吗？

I can understand what they're saying and they don't understand why they're wrong. First, most Israelis live in Judea-Samarra, live in urban blocks. And that accounts for about 90% of the population. And everybody recognizes that those urban blocks are going to be part of Israel in any future arrangement.

我能理解他们在说什么，而他们不明白为什么他们是错误的。首先，大多数以色列人住在犹太-撒玛利亚地区，居住在城市区块。这占了大约90%的人口。而且每个人都承认，无论将来的安排如何，这些城市区块都将成为以色列的一部分。

So they're really arguing about something that has already been decided and agreed upon, really, by Americans, even by Arabs, many Arabs. They don't think that Israel is going to dismantle these blocks.

因此，他们实际上在争论已经由美国人、甚至很多阿拉伯人已经决定和同意的事情。他们不认为以色列会拆除这些阻碍物。

You know, you look outside the window here and within about a kilometer a mile from here is you have Jerusalem, half of Jerusalem grew naturally beyond the old 1967 border. So you're not going to dismantle half of Jerusalem. It's not going to happen. And most people don't expect that.

你知道的，在这里望向窗外，大约一公里远的地方就是耶路撒冷，耶路撒冷的一半曾在1967年的旧边界之外自然生长。所以你不会拆除耶路撒冷的一半，这是不可能的。大多数人也不指望这样。

Then you have the other 10% scattered in tiny, small communities. And people say, well, you've got to have to take them out. Why? Why? Remember that in pre-1967 Israel, we have over a million and a half Arabs here. We don't say Israel has to be ethically cleansed from Arabs in order to have, from its Arab citizens in order to have peace. Of course not. Jews can live among Arabs and Arabs can live among Jews.

然后你还有另外10%分散在微小的社区中。人们说，嗯，你得把他们清除掉。为什么？为什么呢？要记住，在1967年之前的以色列，我们这里有超过一百五十万的阿拉伯人。我们不会说为了和平，以色列必须从其阿拉伯公民中进行伦理清洗。当然不是。犹太人可以和阿拉伯人生活在一起，阿拉伯人也可以和犹太人生活在一起。

And what is being advanced by those people who say that we can't live in our ancestral homeland in these disputed areas? Nobody says that this is Palestinian areas. And nobody says that these are Israeli areas. We claim them. They claim that we've only been attached to this land for, oh, 3,500 years. But, you know, but it's a dispute. I agree. But I don't agree that we should throw out the Arabs. And I don't think that they should throw out the Jews.

那些声称我们不能在争议地区的祖国生活的人们在推进什么呢？没有人说这是巴勒斯坦地区，也没有人说这是以色列地区。我们声称这些领土是我们的。他们声称我们与这片土地的联系只有大约3500年。但是这是一个争议。我同意这一点。但我不同意我们应该赶走阿拉伯人。我也不认为他们应该赶走犹太人。

And if somebody said to you, the only way we're going to have peace with Israel is to have an ethnically cleansed Palestinian entity, you know, that's outrageous. If you said the only way, you know, you shouldn't have Jews living in, I don't know, in suburbs of London or New York and so on, I don't think that will play too well. The world is actually advancing a solution that says that Jews cannot live among Arabs and Arabs cannot live among Jews. I don't think that's the right way to do it.

如果有人告诉你，我们要与以色列实现和平的唯一途径就是建立一个经过种族清洗的巴勒斯坦实体，你知道，这是荒谬可笑的。如果有人说唯一的方式是，你不应该让犹太人居住在伦敦或纽约的郊区等地方，我觉得这样做并不会得到好结果。全球正推行一种解决方案，即犹太人不能与阿拉伯人共同居住，阿拉伯人也不能与犹太人共同居住。我认为这不是正确的做法。

And I think there's a solution out there. But I don't think we're going to get to it, which is less than perfect sovereignty, which involves Israeli security maintained for the entire territory by Israel, which involves not rooting out anybody, not kicking out, uprooting Arabs or Palestinians. We're going to live in enclaves in sovereign Israel and we're going to live in probably in enclaves there, probably through transportation continuity as opposed to territorial continuity. That is, you know, for example, you can have tunnels and overpasses and so on that connect the various communities. And we're doing that right now. We're doing that right now. And it actually works. I think there is a solution to this. It's not the perfect world that people think of because that model, I think, doesn't apply here. If it applies elsewhere, it's a question. I don't think so.

我认为有一个解决方案。但我不认为我们能够实现它，那就是不完美的主权，即以色列为整个领土维持安全，不将任何人赶走、根除阿拉伯人或巴勒斯坦人。我们将在以色列主权下生活在飞地中，可能通过交通线连接来实现，而不是通过土地的连续性。也就是说，例如，我们可以建造隧道、天桥等连接各个社区的设施。我们现在就在做这件事，而且这样做实际上很有效。我认为有一个解决办法。这不是人们所想象的完美世界，因为我认为这种模式在这里不适用。它是否适用于其他地方，还有待商榷。

But I think there's one other thing. And that's the main thing that I've been involved in. You know, people said, if you don't solve the Palestinian problem, you're not going to get to the Arab world. You're not going to have peace with the Arab world. Remember, the Palestinians are about 2% of the Arab world. The other 98%, you're not going to make peace with them. And that's our goal.

但是我认为还有一件事。那就是我一直参与的主要事情。你知道，人们说，如果你不解决巴勒斯坦问题，你就不会与阿拉伯世界建立和平。你不会与阿拉伯世界和平相处。记住，巴勒斯坦人只占阿拉伯世界的2%。其他98%的人，你不会与他们和平相处。而这正是我们的目标。

And for a long time, people accepted that after the initial peace treaties with Egypt, with Prime Minister Begin of the Likud and President said out of Egypt and then with Jordan, between Prime Minister Rabin and Kinkusen. For quarter of a century, we didn't have any more peace treaties because people said, you got to go through the Palestinians. And the Palestinians, they don't want a solution of the kind that I described or any kind, except the one that involved the dissolution of the state of Israel.

长时间以来，人们一直接受着这样的观念：在与埃及总理利库德的贝京和埃及总统说话后，再与约旦总理拉宾和金库森之间达成了最初的和平条约。在接下来的一个世纪里，我们没有再签署任何和平条约，因为人们说，你必须经过巴勒斯坦人。而巴勒斯坦人，他们不希望像我描述的那种或任何种类的解决方案，除非它涉及以色列国家的解体。

So we could wait another half century. And I said, no. I mean, I don't think that we should accept the premise that we have to wait for the Palestinians because we'll have to wait forever. So I decided to do it differently. I decided to go directly to the Arab capitals and to make the historic Abraham Accords and essentially reversing the equation, not a peace process that goes inside out, but outside in. And we went directly to these countries and forged these breakthrough peace accords with the United Arab Emirates, with Bahrain, with Morocco and with Sudan. And we're now trying to expand that in a quantum leap with Saudi Arabia. What does it take to do that with Saudi Arabia, with the Saudi Crown Prince, Muhammad Bissama?

所以我们可以再等半个世纪。我说，不。我的意思是，我认为我们不应该接受我们必须等待巴勒斯坦人的前提，因为我们将永远等不到。所以我决定以不同的方式来解决这个问题。我决定直接去阿拉伯国家首都，与其进行历史性的亚伯拉罕和平协议，本质上是颠倒了方程，不是由内而外的和平进程，而是由外而内。我们直接与阿拉伯联合酋长国、巴林、摩洛哥和苏丹建立了这些突破性的和平协议。现在我们正试图以一次跨越性的飞跃与沙特阿拉伯扩大合作。与沙特阿拉伯、沙特阿拉伯王储穆罕默德·比萨玛达成这样的和平协议需要什么条件？

You know, I'm a student of history and I read a lot of history and I read that, you know, in the very side discussions after World War I, President Woodrow Wilson said, I believe in open covenants, openly arrived at. I have my correction. I believed in open covenants, secretly arrived at. So we're not going to advance a Saudi-Israeli peace by having it publicly discussed. And in any case, it's a decision of the Saudis if they want to do it, but there's obviously a mutual interest.

你知道吗，我是一名历史学生，我读了很多历史书籍。我读到过，在第一次世界大战后的一些非正式讨论中，伍德罗·威尔逊总统说过：“我相信公开达成的公约。”但我纠正了一下，他其实应该是说：“我相信秘密达成的公约。”所以我们不会通过公开讨论来推进沙特和以色列之间的和平。而且无论如何，关于是否要采取行动，这是沙特的决定，但显然存在共同利益。

So here's my view. If we try to wait for the 2% in order to get to the 98%, we're going to fail and we have fail. If we go to the 98%, we have a much greater chance of persuading the 2%. You know why? Is the 2% the Palestinian hope to vanquish the state of Israel and not make peace with it is based, among other things, on the assumption that eventually the 98%, the rest of the Arab world will kick in and destroy the Jewish state, help them dissolve or destroy the Jewish state. When that hope is taken away, then you begin to have a turn to the realistic solutions of coexistence, by the way, the required compromise on the Israeli side too. And I'm perfectly cognizant of that and willing to do that, but I think a realistic compromise will be struck much more readily when the conflict between Israel and the Arab states, the Arab world is effectively solved. And I think we're on that path.

所以这是我的观点。如果我们试图等待2%的人来达到98%，我们将会失败，我们已经失败了。如果我们去找98%，我们有更大的机会说服那2%。你知道为什么吗？2%的巴勒斯坦人希望征服以色列，而不是与之和平共存，这种希望基于这样的假设：最终，阿拉伯世界的其余98%将参与进来，摧毁犹太国家，帮助他们解体或摧毁犹太国家。当这种希望被剥夺时，才会开始出现对共存的现实解决方案的转变，顺便提一下，这也需要以色列方面做出妥协。我完全了解这一点，并愿意这样做，但我认为在以色列和阿拉伯世界之间的冲突得到有效解决时，将更容易达成一个现实的妥协。我认为我们正走在这条道路上。

It was a conceptual change, just like I've been involved in a few. I told you the conceptual battle is always the most difficult one. And I had to fight this battle to convert a semi-socialist state into a free market capitalist state. And I have to say that most people today recognize the power of competition and the benefits of free markets. So we also had to fight this battle that said you have to go through the Palestinian Strait SDR-AIT to get to the other places. There's no way to avoid this. You have to go through this impassable pass. And I think that now people are recognizing that we'll go around it and probably circle back. And that, I think, actually gives hope not only to have an Arab-Israeli peace, but circling back in Israeli-Palestinian peace. And obviously this is not something that you find in the sound bites and so on, but in the popular discussion of the press, but that idea is permeating. And I think it's the right idea because I think it's the only one that will work.

这是一个概念性的转变，就像我以前参与过的一些转变一样。我告诉过你，概念之争总是最困难的。我必须打这场战斗，把一个半社会主义国家转变成一个自由市场资本主义国家。我不得不说，今天大多数人都认识到竞争的力量和自由市场的好处。所以我们也必须打这场战斗，说你必须通过巴勒斯坦海峡SDR-AIT才能到达其他地方。没有办法绕过这个问题。你必须通过这个不可通行的关口。我认为现在人们正在认识到我们将绕过它，可能还会绕回来。我认为这不仅给以色列和阿拉伯之间的和平带来了希望，也给以色列和巴勒斯坦之间的和平带来了希望。显然，这不是你在新闻片段中找到的东西，但这个想法正在渗透。我认为这是正确的想法，因为我认为这是唯一行得通的想法。

So expanding the circle of peace, just to linger on that, requires what secretly talking man-to-man human to human, to leaders of other nations. Theoretically, you're right. Theoretically. Okay.

扩大和平的圆圈，仅仅停留在那一点上，需要秘密地进行人与人之间、领导人之间的面对面交流，与其他国家的领导人进行对话。理论上，你是对的。理论上。好的。

So let me ask you another theoretical question on the circle of peace as a student of history, looking at the ideas of war and peace. What do you think can achieve peace in the war in Ukraine, looking at another part of the world? If you consider the fight for peace in this part of the world, how can you apply that to that other part of the world between Russia and Ukraine now?

所以作为历史学的学生，让我再问你一个有关和平循环的理论问题，关于战争和和平的观念。你认为在乌克兰战争中可以通过什么手段实现和平呢？如果你考虑到这个世界其他地区为和平而奋斗的经验，你会如何应用到俄罗斯和乌克兰之间的另一个地区呢？

I think it's one of the savage horrors of history and one of the great tragedies that is occurring. And let me say in advance that if I have any opportunity to use my contacts to help bring about it into this tragedy, I'll do so. I know both leaders, but I don't just jump in and assume, you know, if there's a desire at a certain point, because the conditions have created the possibility of helping stop this carnage, then I'll do it. And that's why I choose my words carefully, because I think that may be the best thing that I could do.

我认为这是历史上野蛮恐怖的一个，也是正在发生的大悲剧之一。让我先说，在我有任何机会利用我的人际关系来帮助结束这场悲剧时，我会这样做。我认识两位领导人，但我不会盲目地加入并假设，在某个阶段存在帮助制止这场屠杀的愿望，因为条件创造了这种可能性，我会去做。这就是为什么我谨慎地选择我的言辞，因为我认为那可能是我能做的最好的事情。

Look, I think what you see in Ukraine is what happens if you have territorial designs on a territory by a country that has nuclear weapons. And that, to me, you see the change in the equation. Now, I think that people are low to use nuclear weapons, and I'm not sure that I would think that the Russian side would use them with happy abandon. I don't think that's the question, but you see how the whole configuration changes when that happens. So you have to be very careful on how you resolve this conflict. So it doesn't, well, it doesn't go off the rails, so to speak.

看，我认为乌克兰所发生的事情就是一个国家对一个拥有核武器的领土的领土野心的结果。对我来说，你能看到整个局势发生了改变。现在，我认为人们不太愿意使用核武器，我也不确定俄罗斯会不会毫不犹豫地使用它们。我认为这不是问题所在，但是你能看到整个局势发生了巨大变化。所以你必须非常小心地解决这个冲突，这样它才不会脱离轨道。

That's, by the way, the Carl area is here. We don't want Iran, which is an aggressive force with an un. just aggressive ideology of dominating first the Muslim world and then eliminating Israel and then becoming a global force, having nuclear weapons. It's totally different when they don't have it than when they do have it. And that's why one of my main goals has been to prevent Iran from having the means to. means of mass destruction, which will be used atomic bombs, which they openly say will be used against us, and you can understand that.

顺便说一下，卡尔地区就在这里。我们不希望伊朗拥有核武器，因为伊朗是一个具有侵略性的势力，憑借其主导首先是伊斯兰世界，然后消灭以色列，最终成为全球势力的侵略性意识形态。当他们没有核武器时，情况完全不同于他们拥有核武器时。因此，防止伊朗获得大规模杀伤性武器一直是我的主要目标之一，这些武器将被用来制造原子弹，他们公开表示将用来对付我们，你可以理解这一点。

How to bring about an entry of crime? I have my ideas. I don't think it's worthwhile discussing them now because they might be required later on. Do you believe in the power of conversation, since you have contacts with Vladimir Zelensky and Vladimir Putin, just leaders sitting in a room and discussing how the end of war can be brought about? I think it's a combination of that, but I think it's the question of interest and where there you have to get both sides to a point where they think that that conversation will lead to something useful. I don't think they're there right now.

如何引发犯罪行为？我有一些想法。我不认为现在讨论它们是值得的，因为以后可能会需要。你相信对话的力量吗？既然你与弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基和弗拉基米尔·普京有联系，他们只是坐在一个房间里讨论如何结束战争，我认为这是一种结合，但我认为这是一个利益和两方都需要认为对话将会产生有益结果的问题。我认为他们现在还没有达到那个程度。

What part of this is just basic human ego, stubbornness, all of this between leaders, which is why I bring up the power of conversation, of sitting in a room realizing where a human being is. There's a history that connects Ukraine and Russia. I don't think they're in a position to enter a room right now, realistically. You can posit that it would be good if that could happen, but entering the room is sometimes more complicated than what happens in the room. There's a lot of pre-negotiation, under-negotiation, then you negotiate endlessly. They're not even there.

这其中有多少只是基本的人类自我、固执以及领导人之间的斗争，这也是为什么我提到对话和坐在一间房子里认识到一个人身上所存在的力量的原因。乌克兰和俄罗斯有着联系的历史。我认为他们现在并没有进入一个房间的条件，现实上来说。你可以假设如果这能够发生会很好，但是进入房间有时比房间里发生的事情更加复杂。有很多的前期谈判、暗谈，然后你会无休止地进行谈判。他们甚至还没有达到那一步。

It took a lot of work for you to get to hand shake in the past. It's an interesting question. How did the peace, the Abraham Accords, how did that be? It began. I mean, we had decades, 70 years, or 65 years, where these people would not meet openly or even secretly with an Israeli leader. We had the Mossad making contacts with them all the time and so on. How did we break the ice to the top level of leadership? Well, we broke the ice because I took a very strong stance against Iran. The Gulf states understood that Iran is a formidable danger to them, so we had a common interest. The second thing is that because of the economic reforms that we had produced in Israel, Israel became a technological powerhouse. That could help their nations, not only in terms of anything, just bettering the life of their peoples.

过去你为了与他们握手付出了很多努力，这是一个有趣的问题。和平、亚伯拉罕协议是如何实现的呢？开始的时候，这就是说，我们经历了几十年、70年或65年，这些人不会公开地或者暗地里与以色列领导人见面。我们的摩萨德（以色列情报机构）一直与他们进行接触等等。我们是怎么打破了领导层之间的隔阂呢？嗯，我们打破了隔阂是因为我对伊朗采取了非常强硬的立场。海湾国家意识到伊朗对他们来说是一个强大的威胁，所以我们有共同的利益。第二件事是，由于以色列进行的经济改革，以色列成为了一个技术大国。这可以帮助他们的国家，不仅仅是在各个方面改善他们人民的生活。

The combination of the desire to have some kind of protection against Iran or some kind of cooperation against Iran and civilian economic cooperation came to a head when I gave a speech in the American Congress, which I didn't do lightheartedly. I had to decide the challenge of setting American president on the so-called Iranian deal, which I thought would pave Iran's path with gold to be an effective nuclear power. That's what would happen. So I went there. And in the course of giving that speech before the joint session of Congress, our delegation received calls from Gulf states who said, we can't believe what your prime minister is doing. He's challenging the president of the United States. I had no choice. Because I thought my country's own existence was imperiled. And remember, we always understand through changing administrations that America, no matter what leadership, is always the irreplaceable and indispensable ally of Israel. And we always remain that.

当我在美国国会发表演讲时，对保护自己免受伊朗威胁或者与他们进行合作以及进行民间经济合作的渴望达到了顶点。我没有轻率地做这个决定。我必须应对让美国总统接受所谓的伊朗协议的挑战，我认为这将使伊朗成为一个有效的核大国。这就是将会发生的事情。所以我上去了。在给国会联席会议发表演讲的过程中，我们代表团接到了来自海湾国家的电话，他们说，我们无法相信你们的总理在做什么。他正在挑战美国总统。我别无选择，因为我认为我的国家的存在受到了威胁。请记住，我们始终明白，无论领导层如何更迭，美国始终是以色列不可或缺的、不可替代的盟友。我们始终如此。

We can have arguments as we have. But in the families, we say, in the Mishbokhe, it's the family. But nevertheless, I was forced to take a stand. That produced calls from Gulf states that ultimately led to clandestine meetings that ultimately flowered into the Abraham Accords. Then I think we're at a point where the idea of ending the Arab-Israeli conflict, not the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, the Arab-Israeli conflict can happen. I'm not sure it will. It depends on quite a few things, but it could happen.

我们可以像以前一样发生争论。但在家庭中，我们说，在Mishbokhe（家庭），那就是家人。但尽管如此，我被迫采取立场。这导致了海湾国家的呼吁，最终促成了秘密会议，最终开花结果为亚伯拉罕协议。那时，我认为结束阿拉伯以色列冲突的想法（不是巴以冲突，而是阿拉伯以色列冲突）是可能实现的。我不确定它是否会实现。这取决于很多因素，但是有可能发生。

And if it happens, it might open up the ending of the Israeli-Islamic conflict. Remember, the Arab world is a small part. It's an important part. But there are large Islamic populations and it could bring about an end to the historic enmity between Islam and Judaism. It could be a great thing. So I'm looking at this larger thing. You can be hobbled by saying, well, you've had this hiccup in Gaza or this or that thing happening in the Palestinians. It's important for us because we want security. But I think that a larger question is, can we break out into a much wider peace and ultimately come back and make the peace between Israel and the Palestinians rather than waiting to solve that and never getting to paint on the larger canvas? I want to paint on the larger canvas and come back to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

如果这种情况发生，可能会打开以色列和伊斯兰之间冲突的结局。记住，阿拉伯世界只是一个小部分。它是一个重要的部分。但是伊斯兰教徒的人口众多，这可能会结束伊斯兰教和犹太教之间的历史敌意。这可能是一件伟大的事情。所以我在看这个更大的事情。你可以因为加沙的这个小插曲或者巴勒斯坦的这个事情而束手无策。对我们来说很重要，因为我们想要安全。但我认为一个更大的问题是，我们能否实现更广泛的和平，最终回到以色列和巴勒斯坦人之间的和平，而不是等待解决那个问题，却永远无法在更大的画布上作画？我想在更大的画布上作画，然后回到巴以冲突上来。

As you were worried about in your book, what have you learned about life from your father? My father was a great historian. And well, he taught me several things. He said that the first condition for living organism is to identify danger and time because if you don't, you could be devoured. You could be destroyed very quickly. And that's the nature of human conflict. In fact, for the Jewish people, we didn't. We lost the capacity to identify danger and time and we were almost devoured and destroyed by the Nazi threat. So when I see somebody parroting the Nazi goal of destroying the Jewish state, I try to mobilize the country and the world in time because I think Iran is a global threat, not only a threat to Israel. That's the first thing.

你在书中担心的，关于父亲你从他那里学到了什么关于生活的东西？我的父亲是一位伟大的历史学家。嗯，他教会了我几件事。他说，生物生存的第一个条件就是识别危险和时间，因为如果不这样做，你可能被吞噬，很快就会被毁灭。这就是人类冲突的本质。事实上，对于犹太人来说，我们没有做到。我们失去了识别危险和时间的能力，几乎被纳粹威胁吞噬和摧毁。所以，当我看到有人重复纳粹毁灭犹太国家的目标时，我试图及时动员国家和世界，因为我认为伊朗是一个全球威胁，不仅仅是对以色列的威胁。这是第一点。

The second thing is I once asked him before I got elected, I said, well, what do you think is the most important quality for a prime minister of Israel? And he came back with a question. What do you think? And I said, well, you have to have vision and you have to have the flexibility of navigating and working towards that vision, be flexible, but understand where you're heading. And he said, well, you need that for anything. You need it for, you know, if you're a university president or if you're a leader of a corporation or anything, anybody would have to have that. I said, all right. So what do you need for it to be the leader of Israel? He said, he came back to me with a word that stunned me. He said, education, you need a broad and deep education or you'll be at the mercy of your clerks or the press or whatever. You have to be able to do that. You know, as I spend time in government, being reelected, you know, by the people of Israel, I recognize more and more how right it was. You need to constantly ask yourself, where's the direction we want to take the country? How do we achieve that goal? You also understand that new disciplines are being added. You have to learn all the time. You have to add to your intellectual capital all the time. Kissinger said that he wrote that once you enter public life, you will begin to draw on your intellectual capital. And you know, it'll be depleted very quickly if you stay a long time. I disagree with that. I think you have to constantly increase your understanding of things as they change because my father was right. You need to broaden and deepen your education. As you go along, you can't just sit back and say, well, I studied something in university, or in college, or in Boston, or at MIT, and that's enough. I've done it. No. Learn, learn, learn, learn, never stop. And if I might suggest, as part of the education, I would add in a little literature, maybe Dostoevsky, in the plentiful of time you have the Prime Minister to read. Well, I read him, but I'll tell you what I think is bigger than Dostoevsky. Oh, no. Who's that? Not who's that, but what's that? I would say that Dan Rather came to see me with his grandson a few years ago. And he asked me, the grandson asked me, he was a student in Iberlead College. And he said, he's 18 years old. And he wants to study to enter politics. And he said, what's the most important thing that I have to study to enter political life? And I said, you have three things you have to study. History, history, and history. That's the fundamental discipline for political life. But then you have to study other things, study economics, study politics, and study the military. If you have had an advantage because I spent some years there, so I learned a lot of that. But I had to acquire the other disciplines and you never acquire enough. So read, read, read. And by the way, if I have to choose, I read history, history, and history. Good works of history, not lousy books. Next question.

第二件事是我在当选之前曾问过他，我说，以色列总理最重要的品质是什么？他回答了一个问题。你认为呢？我说，首先，你必须有远见和灵活性来实现这个愿景，要灵活，但也要明白你的目标在哪里。他说，这对任何人都是必需的。你要是大学校长或企业的领导者，无论是什么，都得具备这个品质。我说，好吧。那么成为以色列领导人需要什么？他给出了一个让我震惊的答案。他说，教育，你需要广泛而深入的教育，否则你会对你的秘书、媒体或其他事物束手无策。你必须能够做到这一点。当我在政府中度过时间并通过以色列人民的连任时，我越来越认识到他说得有多对。你必须不断问自己，我们要把国家带向何方？我们如何实现这个目标？你还要明白，新的学科正在不断增加，你必须时刻学习，不断增加自己的智力资本。基辛格曾说过，一旦你进入公共生活，你就会开始利用你的智力资本，而且如果你待得时间太长，它将很快耗尽。我不同意这种说法。我认为，随着事物的变化，你必须不断增加对事物的理解，因为我父亲说得对。你需要不断拓宽和深化你的教育。随着时间的推移，你不能只是坐下来说，好吧，我在大学、学院、波士顿或麻省理工学院学了一些东西，就够了。我已经完成了。不。学习、学习、学习，永不停歇。如果我可以建议的话，作为教育的一部分，我会建议增加一些文学，也许是陀思妥耶夫斯基，在你作为总理拥有充裕的时间里阅读。好吧，我读了他的书，但我告诉你，我认为比陀思妥耶夫斯基更重要的是什么。哦，不。那是谁？不是谁，而是什么。我会说，丹·拉瑟曾几年前带着他的孙子来看我。他的孙子是一所学院的学生，他说，他今年18岁。他想学习以进入政治生涯。他问我，我必须学习什么才能进入政治生活？我说，你必须学习三件事，历史、历史和历史。这是政治生活的基本学科。但是你还必须学习其他东西，学习经济学、学习政治学和学习军事学。我有一个优势，因为我在那里度过了几年，所以我学到了很多东西。但我还得学习其他学科，你永远不能学得足够多。所以要阅读，阅读，阅读。顺便说一句，如果我必须选择，我会阅读历史、历史和历史。好，下一个问题。

You've talked about a survival of a nation. You yourself are a mortal being. Do you contemplate your mortality? Do you contemplate your death? Are you afraid of death? Aren't you? Yes. Who's not? I mean, if you're a conscience, if you're being with conscience, I mean, one of the unhappy things about the human brain is that it can contemplate its own demise. And so we all make our compromises with this. But I think the question is what lives on? What lives on beyond us? And I think that you have to define how much of posterity do you want to influence? I cannot influence the course of humanity. We are specks, you know, little specks. So that's not the issue. But in my case, I've devoted my life to a very defined purpose, and that is to assure the future and security and I would say, permanence, but that is obviously a limited thing of the Jewish state and the Jewish people. I don't think one can exist without the other. So I've devoted my life to that, and I hope that in my time on this earth and in my years in office, I'd have contributed to that.

你谈论过一个国家的生存。你自己是一个有生命的存在。你有没有思考过自己的有限生命？你有没有思考过自己的死亡？你害怕死亡吗？不是吗？是的，谁不害怕呢？我的意思是，如果你是一个有意识的存在，如果你是一个有意识的存在，我是说，人类大脑中令人不满意的一件事就是它可以思考自己的终结。所以我们都与此做出妥协。但我认为问题是什么会延续下去？我们之后还会有什么延续下去？我认为你必须定义自己对后世影响的程度。我不能影响人类的进程。我们只是微不足道的个体，微不足道的小点。所以这不是问题所在。但就我个人而言，我把我的一生都献给了一个非常明确的目标，那就是确保犹太国家和犹太人民的未来、安全和我想说的是，永久性，但显然这是有限的。我认为两者不能分离。所以我把我的一生都献给了这个事业，在我生活的这段时间和在我担任公职的年份里，希望我能对此有所贡献。

Well you had one heck of a life starting from MIT to six terms as Prime Minister. Thank you for this stroll through human history and for this conversation. It was an honor. Thank you. And I hope you come back to us so many times. It's, remember, it's the innovation nation. It's a robust democracy. Don't believe all the stuff that you're being told. It will remain that it can't be any other way. And I'll tell you the other thing. It's the best ally of the United States. And it's important, it's growing by the day because there are capacities in the information world that are growing by the day. We need a coalition of the like-minded smarts. This is a smart nation. And we share the basic values of freedom and liberty with the United States. So the coalition of the smarts means Israel is the sixth eye and America has no better ally.

你的一生经历了从麻省理工到担任六届总理的非凡历程。感谢你带领我们走过人类历史，进行这次对话，这是我的荣幸。谢谢你。我希望你能多次回到我们这里。请记住，这是一个创新的国家，一个充满活力的民主国家。不要相信那些你被告知的一切。它将保持下去，没有其他办法。我还要告诉你一件事。它是美国最好的盟友。而且它的重要性日益增长，因为信息世界的能力也在日益增长。我们需要一个志同道合的智慧联盟。这个国家很聪明。我们与美国分享着自由和自由的基本价值观。因此，这个智囊联盟意味着以色列是美国最好的盟友之一。

All right. Now off, Mike, I'm going to force you to finally tell me who we're going to win. Neil, I'm Oscar, Mark Zuckerberg, but that's a good time. We ran out of time here. I'll tell you outside. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Benjamin Netanyahu. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from our hot McGondie. And I, for an eye, will only make the whole world blind. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

好的，麦克，现在告诉我我们最终要赢谁。尼尔，我是奥斯卡，马克·扎克伯格，不过这是个好时机。我们的时间用完了，我会在外面告诉你。感谢您收听本次与本杰明·内塔尼亚胡的对话。如果您想支持本播客，请查看描述中的赞助商。现在，让我以一段话留给您：“拳打赛会，眼还眼，只会让整个世界失明。”谢谢您的收听，希望下次能见到您。